Kurt Elster | Ethercycle
This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Ethercycle founder Kurt Elster talks about building communities, growing a podcast, and why authenticity is the key to successful marketing.
Kurt is the host of The Unofficial Shopify Podcast, widely considered to be “the” podcast for anyone using Shopify as their ecommerce platform. He is also the creator of the Unofficial Shopify Podcast Insiders Facebook group, which is now more than 4,000 members strong, and the founder of well known ecommerce agency Ethercycle.
Within the ecommerce world, Kurt has a massive, highly loyal following that relies on him for honest advice about growing an ecommerce business. How did he accomplish that? By fiercely guarding the integrity of his community and preventing spam, and staying true to himself throughout his podcast and marketing.
Check out the full episode to hear Kurt’s insights.
Resources from this episode:
Visit the Ethercycle website
Check out the Unofficial Shopify Podcast
Apply to join the Unofficial Shopify Podcast Insiders Facebook Group
Kurt and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:02):
Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is none other than Kurt Elster, who is the host of the unofficial Shopify podcast and the founder and the founder of Ethercycle. The man, the myth, the legend Kurt, welcome to inbound success.
Kurt (00:35):
Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a really very, very warm audience you have.
Kathleen (00:38):
I was just going to say, I mad props for the guests that comes with their own sound effects. This is awesome. They won't abuse it. It's great. I love it. And bring it on. Cause this is, this podcast is about you and what you're doing, and this is a big part of it. It's about injecting personality. So before we get into all of that though, can you do me a favor and for those who have not heard of you give a little background on yourself and your career journey, what you're doing now. Sure.
Kurt (01:09):
So I have, I have worked in e-commerce for the majority of my adult life. And for the last, last decade I've been running an agency such as the web does a small web boutique web design agency, a consultancy. And we built a Shopify store as part of that work about a decade ago for a local bike shop. And they noticed, and they said, you should join this thing called the Shopify experts program or like partner program. And I was like, all right, you know, what's to lose. And as like two years into that, I said, wait, why are we doing anything other than Shopify? And at the same time, I said, you know what, I'm going to call myself the Shopify guy, which I dropped. But at the time I did it, I didn't really necessarily know what I was doing, but it was brand new. No one else did either. That was what's great about it. And I also said, yeah, I want an excuse to buy a microphone. Let's start a podcast. And my business partner has the gear.
Kurt (02:07):
Yeah. He said, you know, I used to edit a podcast for a publication called the onion. I said, I actually had no idea. And the, what had been holding me back was finding, you know, an editor, someone who could produce it. And just, I, I committed to it. I just kept showing up. I committed to, Hey, I'm, I'm the Shopify guy. And we exclusively work with Shopify merchants and we started publishing this podcast every week. And then we just didn't stop. And the thing hit 1.6 million downloads and became this tremendous lead gen source and became this great. For me continuing education where, you know, I get to talk to people for 40 minutes and talk through problems and all kinds of fun stuff. But basically the short answer to your question is I've I eat, sleep, breathe Shopify, and e-commerce for you know, nine, 10 years now.
Kathleen (02:54):
I love it. And I think what you just said is so perfect because it's a big part of why I think I felt this like kinship with you when we first talked. Cause I was on your podcast. Because I was an early HubSpot partner and kind of had the same experience where I went all in on HubSpot at the time. And at the time nobody was doing it. So just being a HubSpot partner was a differentiator. And then that, that eventually changed. And now I feel like the whole world is the HubSpot partner. I'm not doing that anymore. I am doing something else now, but, but I too then started a podcast and four years later, it's still going. I keep showing up. And I always say like, the reason I would keep doing this, even if nobody listened, because I learn so much from my guests and that's, what's so much fun about it. Thank God people do listen. Right. But, but it's a ton of fun to have people like you on and to learn from you so
Kurt (03:41):
Well. And in many ways you can also use a podcast then becomes a Trojan horse in a way. And you know, that has a negative connotation to it. It's not because typically let's say you want to talk to someone who interests you, but you don't know them. So you're going to send them a cold email. Hopefully they see it. And it's like, oh, can I buy you a cup of coffee and pick your brain
Kurt (04:04):
The worst, most dreadful pitch you could send anybody. Nobody wants that. Yeah. Whereas with the podcast, Hey, I've got, you know, I've, I've got this audience. I would love to interview you. And so you could share your experience with them and you know, you get PR and back links you know, leads, whatever it is. And so it's, now you can, you have something of value to offer people you have more valuable than a cup of coffee to pick their brain, and then you're learning in public. Right. And the audience picks up on that. And especially when it's genuine, where you really are, they're hearing you learn and talk through problems and ask questions because they oftentimes they will have had the same thought or wondered the same thing. And so I think it works very well. So it's like I have, I have documented my own professional development and I totally agree.
Kathleen (04:48):
It's a give and then get mentality. And then I have cold tweeted, a lot of my marketing idols and successfully gotten them on my podcast that way. So it's a, it's great. I love it.
Kurt (04:59):
It's definitely easier when it's like marketers among marketers, right? Like, wait, you all know the score, so it's easier. I think it's easier to make that, that style pitch to them.
Kathleen (05:10):
Yeah. Well, you have had such a fascinating career and I think you you've, you've hinted at this, but I'll, I'll, I'll toot your horn for you. You've built a massive community of Shopify users, your podcast. When I first got into e-commerce, everybody said, this is the podcast, right? This is the guy. And so obviously what you're doing is working and, and not only do you have the podcast and, and have the community and have become an authority, what I have observed is like you, you do guard that very carefully in the sense that I can see that you take seriously your commitment to building a community that is truly a community and not just a thinly sales channel. And you also have a very distinct voice, which I think is part of what has made people gravitate towards you. So there's a lot there that I just mentioned that I kind of want to unpack, but let's let's well, where do you think the best places to start in that, in that whole category?
Kurt (06:16):
I think, Hm. Hm. I think the, the authenticity is critical. I think you, you mentioned that first, so there's like fake it till you make it, but you still need to know what your goals are and what you want. Right. And my goal was, was to learn Shopify and I have always loved entrepreneurship. Like that was the core kernel. There was I'm going to, I knew what my, why was you got to know what your, why is? And in my case, it was, I want to champion entrepreneurship because that's what I wanted. I want a successful business. And the way I've built that was by helping other people build successful businesses. And so when I made that explicitly clear and that like, this is my goal, this is what I'm going to do. You take it or leave it, you've come along for the ride or not makes no difference to me.
Kurt (07:05):
And then you combine that with this idea that you give more value than you take, or just pre you know, I'm learning in public, I'm putting all this content out there, I'm sharing ideas and sharing what works with thousands of people. Well, if you're at an agency business, how many clients do most agencies really need at a time? Like if you've had for most agencies, realistically, it's like 10 clients at a time means like we are slammed with work. And if it's more than that, it's really like, you've got pods, you have multiple teams, they have a few clients each. And so you have thousands of people listening to you monthly and sharing these experiences and being top of mind with them when they, maybe it takes months or years, but when they do need help, they're going to reach out to you. And so then, you know, you've created this, what I refer to as a luck sale. And I heard this in a Ted talk, so I'm not making this up, but like, certainly you can't, you can't make yourself lucky, but you can create scenarios in which more opportunities will come to you. And I think that's what content marketing is in this scenario, but it only works if it's authentic and genuine. That's probably true of most content though, right? Like this isn't specific to this.
Kathleen (08:19):
So define though what you mean by like what makes content authentic and genuine to you?
Kurt (08:25):
It's if you, when I see the content and like, you'll see this with, I get a lot of like info product ads, and they'll often there'll be targeted as like you're an agency owner and, you know, get off the hamster wheel and I'm going to help you sell and make all this money. It doesn't come across as authentic because I know their interest really is not my success. It's selling me something. And I, what saves me in that content marketing approach is I'm not charging for any the content it's always free. It's always out there. We have sponsors who pay for it. And then you have thousands of people listening to it. But really only a handful is single digits are the people who are going to work with and end up paying. So at end, when it's clear, okay, he's not out to get something from me. This is just, it is genuine. It is what it is. Then it becomes authentic and genuine. And then I think the consistency too,
Kathleen (09:26):
It's really funny that you describe it that way, because I have this podcast. And then for work, I host a work podcast and the work podcast it has to do with the advertising technology side of our business. It's called ad ops all-stars. And I interview people who lead advertising operations teams. And it's just about them in their career. And people constantly ask me, why do you do this? Like, you don't talk about your product, that we don't immediately follow up and try to sell them anything. And I'm always just like, look, I know you're not talking about what we do all the time, right? Like you're not talking about malvertising, which is the problem we solve in that side of our business. So maybe you talk about that one day of the year, the other 364 days of the year, I want to be a part of the conversations you're having. I want to build a relationship and the, how I do that is I help you. I shine the spotlight on you. I make you the hero. I get your story in front of people. I learn a lot from you. And like, someday, if you need something like what we do, hopefully we get, we get an at-bat like, you know, that's, that's sort of it like in a nutshell. Yeah, exactly.
Kurt (10:33):
Yeah. You are. You've created a scenario where you are keeping yourself top of mind, where you are establishing your authority and it's all through just like entirely voluntarily, essentially having a window into your, your life where people can look in and they could share that with you. And it's entirely up to them. You know, you're not pushing it. You're not advertising it. It's not in their Facebook feed because you paid a sponsored ad with like some screaming ad. And said that I think is, is where the genuineness and the authenticity authenticity comes from 100%.
Kathleen (11:06):
So you start with the space of authenticity, which is like being really yourself and being very educational in your approach. W w w I feel like this is a, which came first, the chicken or the egg question, but like with the podcast, how did it really grow so fast? Like, how did you get the word out about it? How did people discover it?
Kurt (11:27):
That's a really good question. And, you know, the truth is I have no idea. I really don't. W what I have found with podcasts, you know, cause I've, I've hosted this one a while. I've guessed it on many. That's how it started. Was I just, I was guesting on podcasts and like, people email me. And so it's this very personal medium, right? Where I'm going about my day with someone in my ears and you're like eavesdropping on their conversation essentially. And so if you are yourself on it then it, it creates this personal connection. So people reach out to me, but so I saw the power of it. And then other podcast hosts at the end would go, oh, well, you should you're, you seem like you might be a natural at this. Why don't you? Which is funny. Cause I'm I had horrible social anxiety.
Kurt (12:15):
I did like do two shots of whiskey before my first podcast. The, but they'd say you should host your own podcast. It's okay. So we started doing it and we just kept publishing it. But I already had an email list of probably like 500 people to initially get that word out. And I had shared a little bit in Facebook groups, but I think the reviews helped doing a little bit of treating like iTunes and Spotify and those other podcasts houses, search engines. So just making sure you have like complete descriptions and keywords. I think that that organic discovery helped including, including clean transcripts. We did that started that early on. That definitely helps. So Sarah, an SEO play combined with just that like positive reviews and organic content, but anything else? I tried really didn't work.
Kurt (13:07):
Like I tried paid promo didn't work. I tried guesting on other podcasts. That definitely helped though. Cause it all right. I listen to this podcast. I like Kathleen. Oh, she's got this other guy. Oh, I liked him. I liked what he was saying. Okay. I'll check that out. So I think that's, and like you're already speaking to people, you know, who are in that medium. I think it's it's that combo is like guesting produce good content. And when you have a good episode you've produced, like, I think that includes the show notes your, your art and the transcript to make sure it's got some sub search engine value. There
Kathleen (13:41):
You are. I think you're spot on. And it's very interesting what you just said, because I've had a lot of debates about this. I published transcripts too, and I feel really, really strongly about it for a couple of reasons. One I'm somebody who can read faster than they can listen. And so I do like listening to some podcasts, but there are others where I'm like, I just want to skim it and find that information and be done. Right. But I'm also super passionate about it because I think from an accessibility standpoint, like it's important to offer people who, who are hearing impaired, the ability to consume the content. And the nice side effect of all of that is that you get great SEL. Like I think my transcripts from my podcast are like five to 7,000 words, which is like, like if you had to write that yourself, it would take a long time.
Kathleen (14:27):
But I, I, for a very long time the website where my show notes were published, they pushed back really hard and they were like, nobody wants to read all this. And I'm like, we're it. We are publishing it. So it's interesting to hear you talk about that.
Kurt (14:44):
Yeah. Especially in e-commerce we see a lot of Americans ADA lawsuits, Americans with disabilities act where people are saying, Hey, websites are inaccessible. And certainly the web should, the internet, internet access in the web in a modern country should be a right. And I, for that to work, you also have to be inclusive of disabled people and publishing a transcript with your podcast. Just isn't that hard, so easy. And it's cheap.
Kathleen (15:13):
Like I think I use, I use rev.com and I do the auto transcribe and it's like $10 an episode. So, well, when I need
Kurt (15:20):
Something quick and dirty, like sometimes I just don't want, like, I'll have a snippet, I'll have a conversation. I'll have like a recorded meeting. I'll just run it through that rev auto transcript. It's like $2. Oh, here we go. Or sometimes even just like, you know, I want to rerecord like a clip or sponsored ad that I already recorded. I'm the one who did it. And I like lost the script. I just go run through that to get it back again.
Kathleen (15:42):
Yeah. It's, it's great. And so you're right. There's very little reason not to do it. So there's, there's the podcast and how that kind of grew. But the other element of this that I find so interesting is the community. So you have a Facebook group. How many people are in that Facebook group now, roughly
Kurt (16:00):
It's over 4,000.
Kathleen (16:02):
And how long have you had that?
Kurt (16:05):
A few years. And I, I saw some other Facebook groups that like look successful and interesting. And I knew like I liked Facebook groups and I'd always love forums dating myself here, but I loved forums and it felt like Facebook groups were starting to fill that void and replace them. I want to get in on that too. So I made a Facebook group and we quickly realized it should be private. And that the issue with the big issue with Facebook groups in general is spam. So we just drew a hard line and we had been part of other on, you know, we're big nerds. We'd been part of other online communities growing up. And so we knew the thing that kills them as spam. And so that will like really, that was, it was, it needed to be a safe space to talk about entrepreneurship.
Kurt (16:49):
And that meant no spamming and really like reduced negativity. Cause a lot of groups I think Facebook groups and like fan interest groups in general devolve into I'm going to prove how dedicated and sophisticated I am by just complaining about everything. Like my wife's a Disney blogger and like the Disney, super fans are the ones who appear to hate Disney, the most kind of thing. And like, I didn't want that in a group about people who are trying to get their business off the ground. I wanted to be positive and encouraging. Cause it's really, it's a tough thing. And like your family doesn't get it. I mean, my wife and I have both been there, we get it. And so I wanted this, the safe space I wanted no spam and said, I also didn't care about just straight. I wanted quality over quantity.
Kurt (17:33):
And so it turns out the Facebook group, the trick to do that is be swift with the band hammer. So you just be clear about your rules and expectations live up to them yourself. And then if people don't abide by them, you gotta kick them out. And I've gotten some hilarious, nasty messages about from a few people who got tossed and w ask questions, Facebook, let you ask questions upfront. So it's also a great lead gen tool. We'd say, Hey, if you want to join, if you want to join my newsletter, just put in your email. It's entirely optional. And most people do. And then, so that's like the podcast then becomes the number. One way I grow my email list is because it also grows that Facebook group that builds the community. That's
Kathleen (18:14):
Very interesting. And that's the flywheel really?
Kurt (18:18):
I love the phrase. Yeah. Flight marketing, flywheel, I think is a brilliant phrase. If you want to use, we say I'm in our office. My business partner says you want to use all parts of the content, so we'll make the podcast. And then you get a transcript out of that podcast. And then I'll pay a copywriter to often turn parts of them into blog articles. So I've got that we'll send a newsletter about it, some social posts. And then if it's my business partner, I, or like a handful of guests we'll record video as well, put on YouTube. But then the real magic is like long form video. Doesn't do well on YouTube. The real magic is you cut it down into like social media, quick bites. And then those are super high engagement and everybody's got their phones muted. So we use rev to transcribe it and burn the subtitles into the video.
Kathleen (19:11):
You and I, man, I'll tell ya. I, I do the same thing with not with this one, cause I don't publish video, but my other podcast, all the trends, all the captions are burned in. It's, it's, it's a great system and it works right? Like it, it works and it's great for everybody. So the thing, the other thing I noticed about your Facebook group is you screen upfront who gets into it. So it's not just being strict about, you know, no spam it's
Kurt (19:40):
Yeah. You have to, to keep the spammers out. Yeah. They're not very sophisticated, like the lie. And what's funny about that is like face when you're approving people for a Facebook group. Cause there'll be like, there's three questions. And the first question is what's your Shopify store. Right. And then there'll be like, like they'll put in someone else's if they're like, most people just leave it blank and they get declined. So truly I declined the majority of people and, but they'll fill it out. They'll just put in like someone else's or like they'll make one up or they'll go auto have it yet. But then you like, Facebook shows you where they work. So it'll be like, it'll be like you know, SEO expert at Fiverr. And so I know right away, like, all right, you're just here. You're spam people, the sophisticated ones.
Kurt (20:27):
They don't post in your group. They just DM all your members. Oh geez. That's terrible. And so I actually, I, I have a pin post where we invite people. I said if you see spam, if someone DMS, you just tell me and they will be banned. We are swift with the band hammer was how I phrased it. So you also, like, you don't want it to sound like you're, you know, pedantic and punitive, like everyone, well, not everyone, but anyone who's dealt with a homeowner's association, like you don't want your group admins to be HOA boards. So you have to do it like be, try and be fun with it, but just really make, like, make the expectations clear and then make it clear as to why the whole reason is it a safe space to talk about our businesses. And so I can't have people we'll get you back links. Right?
Kathleen (21:12):
Well, I think the other thing, so I used to work at another company that had a big Facebook group. And the thing I noticed is that moderation in general is key. Not just because like a good community doesn't have spam, but a good community is a place where people can ask questions and they actually get answers. And so the worst thing is somebody asks a question and then there's this like crickets. Right. they stopped coming back. And so I'm curious. Yeah, those
Kurt (21:35):
Are the ones that haunt me if I see someone post and it has zero engagement. Yeah.
Kathleen (21:39):
So how much time, how active are you as a moderator? How much time do you spend going in like looking for stuff like that, making sure it gets an answer, maybe giving it a bump or trying to encourage conversation, things like that.
Kurt (21:51):
So I'm on a strict social media diet because otherwise it makes me insane. And so I check all social media twice a day, essentially like book end the day with it. And I use an app called freedom and I have it blocked on my phone and my computer outside of the start and end of the day. And so that for the Facebook group for any one social media channel, less than an hour a day, and then I use social media tools to like schedule all my posts so that there's always content going. Yeah,
Kathleen (22:24):
That makes sense. All right. So we talked about the podcast, which so we're now we're getting into the flywheel and we talked about that the podcast sends people to the community, and then we talked about how the community generates interest in the newsletter. So now let's get into what you're doing on your site and your, in your newsletter.
Kurt (22:42):
Oh, the newsletter is probably email is such a powerful channel. And especially for like my e-commerce clients, they know this and I hammer on this and then I turn around and I'm so inconsistent about sending out my own newsletter. But when I do do it, I put together, so I use a lot of email automation. So we have like triggered emails based on what you do, what you view. And so you essentially, like, there's always a, a best of my newsletters going out to people depending on you know, where they are. And, but then weekly I'll write what I do is on Tuesdays. Tuesdays and weekends, the automations can never be sent and they're disallowed from doing it. And so then I'll that way whenever I, and I should do it every Tuesday, but I don't, when I get around to it, I write my newsletter on Tuesday, but all the emails are plain text they're from my real email address. That is the, I will not, my real email address is nowhere else. Even my public emails for agency and stuff, they're honeypots they go to my wife and then she just deletes all the garbage, which is like, it's 99% of it is just trash.
Kathleen (23:48):
How does your wife get stuck with that job?
Kurt (23:52):
Cause she wanted to quit her job and needed a job, a job.
Kathleen (23:56):
I was going say, I hope you're paying her well to deal with all that garbage. Yeah, no, she gets
Kurt (24:01):
She gets paid for that. Nice. and she also does our app support, which as well. So it just kinda, it was easy to roll that into, oh, this is part of app support now. But no, it, I send it from my real email as me in plain text. And I think that helps keep that like authentic, genuine, you know, you're hearing this person's personality and then I'll often I'll try and put like, I'll be like, Hey, here's today's episode, but first here's what's new. And then sometimes they'll stick it in like, yeah, you know, we were, we went on a road trip and like here's a photo from that. We went to Disney world, this was my favorite ride. Like I try and put some of my, my regular life in it so that it feels like an email from someone, you know?
Kathleen (24:40):
Yeah. Which I mean, hopefully it will be because hopefully that's what you're building as a community where people know you, like you trust you, et cetera. So what's
Kurt (24:49):
Interesting after doing it for years, I've never had a single person complain about me being myself, me being authentic, me putting my personality in there. Yeah. In anything it's never happened because people relate to people, not brands.
Kathleen (25:03):
That's exactly right. And yeah, I, when I was at impact, we built an email newsletter that I think today has over 50,000 subscribers. And one of the women on my team, this woman, Liz Morehead, who's a brilliant, brilliant writer and with a great voice and tone. And she, she wrote it and she told, she opened up her, her life and wrote about it. Every single we did three times a week, that newsletter went out and it was funny. At one point she was being promoted and they were like, maybe we should have somebody else write the newsletter. And they tried it and it just didn't work because everybody loved Liz. It was her that they were coming for, which is scary for businesses a little bit, especially if it's not somebody who's an owner. But but it's also, I think, necessary. Like you have to build that connection with a personal brand. Yes.
Kurt (25:51):
In a good example of this inaction is in e-commerce. If we, you watch screen recordings of people making a purchase for a first time, they will, you know, like they'll find their product, they go through their journey, they add it and then the hit the cart and then they don't go to checkout. Oftentimes they go to the about page. They want to know who they're about to give their credit card to do I trust this person? Who am I buying from? Who is this? Why, why are they even running this business what's going on here? Cause you know, nothing like buying on the internet from a random business is really no different than a dude in a parking lot, pops his trunk and screams. You want to buy a t-shirt give me your credit card. Yeah. How was it different? It really isn't. So they want to know like, all right, who is this person? And so they'll check the about page. So I think the more of your personality you could put out there. Yeah. Maybe some people are like, yeah, I don't like this guy. His beard is stupid and like that kind of thing. But the other people will, will connect with you. I suppose. The more of yourself you are, you separate the wheat from the chaff.
Kathleen (26:52):
Yeah. I would agree with that. And I mean, when I was an agency owner, I was probably in hundreds of companies, Google analytics. And so I actually saw data to back up what you're saying, which is that the about pages usually are the team page is usually the most traffic, one of the most traffic pages on the site. It's, it's amazing. And almost every single company. And if you look at like heat maps and click maps and Hotjar or lucky orange, you usually see that's where the deep red is there. People are clicking over the about we're social animals. We want to know also easy
Kurt (27:20):
Optimization, go back to that about page, make sure it's got like that story and all that, but you can put your FAQ's in there. Like what do you want everybody to know since, you know, people check this page and then like, make sure there's a call to action at the bottom.
Kathleen (27:31):
Yep. That's a missed opportunity for a lot of companies. So tell me about like how all this has grown over the years. You've you started all this. What year was it?
Kurt (27:40):
I started in 2009. I quit my job as a e-commerce channel manager at a local auto parts drop shipper. I'm a car guy. And I said, this is beyond stupid. Cause I had not done any research and they don't want to know. I said, I'm going to build an e-commerce platform for bike shops. It turns out that was really hard. I don't know if you anyone realize this is incredibly difficult. And so I needed to, but I'd rented office space in my hubris and needed to keep the lights on. So I started building WordPress sites. Oh my gosh. And people were paying me like 700 bucks a site. I said, this, how am I getting away with this? And the first time I charged 7,000, I was like, am I going to jail? Is this illegal? And then, but you know, design is very subjective and hard. And so we ended up that was our attraction. E-Commerce both. I had a lot of experience in it. I enjoyed it. It was fun, but you didn't have the, it, everything was tied back to a business goal. Like, is this going to increase revenue for the business versus, you know, building brochure sites for local businesses or creative agencies is like, oh, the art director or, you know, the owner's dog, doesn't like this color. So you got to change it. That stuff doesn't happen. Any commerce.
Kathleen (28:53):
Yeah. That's that is nice. I, I, I always love when somebody is like, well, I think we should make this blue. And they'll be like, well, why should it be blue? What are we trying to achieve by making it blue? And most people are just like, I just like blue better. And it's like that that is not anything to do with driving results. So put aside your personal preferences and yeah. So that's amazing. I love that story and I love that it translates into the reputation that you have. Like I said, when I came into e-commerce your, your reputation definitely preceded you. And I think you're now known in the industry quite far and wide. And I, and I would say a lot of that does have to do with the care that you take in terms of safeguarding, you know, the unspoken promise that you've made to your audience, which is we're here to educate. We're here to help. We're not here to sell or spam, et. And, and to me, that's the biggest mistake that most companies or brands make when they create communities and they create content is it's, it's not a very well disguised sales pitch. Yes. Yeah. You gotta
Kurt (29:53):
Maintain that, that authenticity. We work with a brand who has like they get something like 20 million impressions a month through social media and they sell sponsorships and the sponsorships are, you know, it's like product placement, but their whole thing is you don't have to like our content, it like this in their brand deck, their pitch to potential sponsors or product placement folks. They say, you don't have to like our content because it doesn't matter. Our audience loves it and they know what's authentic. And so it will connect with them if you'll take the chance and then like, and that's it, take it or leave it. That's the whole pitch. And I think that's to be authentic, you have to have that attitude of like, all right, everybody needs to be willing to walk away if this doesn't make sense. Yeah. And I think we, it it's independence and especially I know early on it, like, it's hard to walk away from certain deals when you're like, look, I need the cash. But the, the more independent you can view yourself, the easier it becomes to maintain that authenticity. That's a, that's a, that would be my key takeaway for people from this interview.
Kathleen (31:07):
Yeah. Yeah. And I would say like, when you try to appeal to everyone, you generally appeal to no one because you, you start to sound like everybody else, you know, like the more you can not worry about who you're going to turn off and just be true to yourself and take it, have a viewpoint, have, have a unique voice. You will naturally, there will be an audience that doesn't like you and that's okay. I
Kurt (31:30):
Heard someone, I don't know who said it, but I heard someone say, know, if you're not someone off, you're not trying hard enough. You're not being yourself. You're not having a strong enough opinion. You're not sharing enough. Cause certainly if you try to make everybody happy, you're just going to have a really generic brand. Right. Like you, and it's harder to do that than to just be yourself and accept that. Like some people aren't gonna like it. And that's okay. What you want is to have that laser focus, positioning, where you are clear in your, in yourself, in the brand who the audience is, as long as everything is really clear, those people will super connect with it and then everybody else doesn't matter.
Kathleen (32:09):
Yeah, exactly. Well, I love, I love this. I love your point of view. We're going to shift gears because I have two questions that I always ask my guests and I want to hear what you have to say about this before we wrap up. The first one is this podcast, obviously it's all about inbound marketing, which is a pretty big umbrella, right? It's anything that attracts an audience to you. And, and that's really what we've talked about today is how do you attract your audience? When you think about that as a category, are there, is there a particular brand or individual that you think is really setting the standard for what it means to be a great inbound marketer? Oh, that's a good question. Can name more than one if you want.
Kurt (32:50):
Well, you know, the one who, who really impresses me, content marketing wise, it's just tremendous. And you have to be both a car guy and weird or car person, sorry, it doesn't need to be gendered. It is hooligan and again, which is Ken block, formerly of DC shoes his brand and it's an automotive lifestyle brand and they, but they primarily just produce tremendous content. And I it's utterly nuts the brand affinity, the engagement, like how much people love that brand, given how absolutely insane it is crazier. It gets the more they're into it.
Kathleen (33:33):
I got to check that one out. That sounds really interesting. All right. Second question. A lot of the marketers, I talked to say that their biggest pain point is just how quickly everything changes and digital marketing, whether it's regulatory changes, platform changes, technology driven, changes, you know, new, new apps, new platforms, new channels and they have a hard time keeping up with it and, and educating themselves. And so I'm curious, do you have certain like sources that you rely on to stay educated or a certain strategies to stay on top of all of that? Certainly.
Kurt (34:08):
I think some of it is FOMO. And if you try and stay on top of all of it and every new trend you're going to make yourself crazy. And for what, like I remember probably in 2017, I was getting emails from journalists and bloggers saying, Hey, can you give us a quote on what your, what your voice commerce strategy is, who is doing its 2021, who's doing voice commerce optimization. Who's even thinking about that. Right. It, it didn't happen. It went away
Kathleen (34:38):
Kind of like clubby.
Kurt (34:40):
Yeah. Clubhouse is another one. So it's like, why are you trying to stay educated or are you trying to chase every single shiny toy? And so I, that would be the, the, the question I asked myself first. But what I followed is like really I look at what what's my community talking about and what, what are the pains and problems people are struggling with and where's that overlap. So if it's like people are having these real pains and problems, and then there's this new tool trend thing that solves that, okay, that's the stuff to pay attention to. And if you're there the generally I want to try it once. I either want to try and walk through it once myself, I want to try and learn it and do it myself once and teach myself. And I have found consistently really like YouTube is such a tremendous educational resource. Now YouTube has gotta be the best school in library on the planet now.
Kathleen (35:42):
Yeah. It's I have a 15 year old who just got contact lenses and it's so funny cause he's struggling to get them in his eyes and it's been like a week and a half and I was like, you just have to go on YouTube. Like there's somebody else out there who's 15, who's had this battle and they've made a video. I just know they have, you know, there's and I feel like that for everything. Like there's no matter what it is, you're trying to learn. There's somebody out there who's done it. And it's on YouTube. So you're right. 100%. well this has been a ton of fun. I, I loved hearing your story and just your outlook on community building and content and authenticity. If somebody wants to learn more about the stuff you're talking about, wants to connect with you. I know you don't give out your email address. So what is the best way for them to find you online and or learn more?
Kurt (36:32):
Check out Kurt elster.com. It's got a, it's kind of, it is a fun polarizing, super built to my personality mess of a website. Encourage you to check this out. Twitter at Curtin, K U R T I N C, but really the podcast unofficial Shopify podcast. If you're into e-commerce that's that's the best resource, but if you sign up for my newsletter, that's my real email. Oh my gosh. Just reply to it. Nobody ever figures this out. I do everything with the newsletter and hit reply.
Kathleen (37:05):
Yeah. So that's so funny. Well this has been great. If you're listening and you liked this episode, head to apple podcasts or the platform of your choice and leave the podcast a review that helps other people find us. And if you know somebody else doing kick, inbound marketing work, tweet me at @workmommywork. Yep. That is my Twitter handle. And I would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much for joining me, Kurt.
Kurt (37:31):
This was a lot of fun. Five stars.
