Will Perry | Reason Agency
There’s a lot of buzz about TikTok advertising in the marketing world right now. But how can you know whether it’s the right channel for your business, and how should you get started?
Reason Agency CEO Will Perry is a TikTok ads expert who has gotten incredible results for ecommerce brands. In this episode, he breaks down exactly how he approaches TikTok advertising, and shares actionable takeaways that any company - ecommerce or B2B - can use to build a profitable TikTok ads strategy.
Check out the full episode to learn more.
Resources from this episode:
Connect with Will on LinkedIn
Visit the Reason Agency website
Will and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:00):
Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And my guest this week is Will Perry, who is the CEO and CMO of Reason agency. Welcome to the podcast Will.
Will (00:34):
Hey Kathleen, thank you so much for having me.
Kathleen (00:36):
Yeah. I'm really excited to have you here because the timing is amazing as frequent listeners know, I often treat this podcast for as free consulting for myself. No, I say that only half jokingly because I really do love having people on to talk about topics that I'm trying to learn more about myself and this today's topic is exactly that we're gonna talk about TikTok advertising which I feel like a lot of people wanna know about right now. So I have a feeling this is gonna be a really good one. But before we jump into it, will you please take a few minutes to just share a little bit about your story, who you are, what you do and what Reason Agency is?
Will (01:16):
Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate that opportunity. They're definitely looking forward to sharing what's working right now for you guys. So you know, my marketing career goes back to almost about 15 years ago. I went to school for journalism and digital media at UCF. Go Knights. I'm a big UCF fan. And but when I was in school, I really learned how to write copy. Well, and I think even nowadays copywriting is such an underutilized and under I don't, maybe undersold is, is a, is a good word of how important, especially it is with paid advertising right now, or I should say paid social. And so like, you know, I was writing tons of articles. I was sports editor of our college paper. You know, I wrote a bunch for like Orlando Sentinel and some of like golf week magazine and some things like that early on.
Will (02:16):
And I got an opportunity to write a lot of copy and fast forward a little bit. My first internship was in the golf industry and I landed an opportunity where I came on directly as like marketing manager, right out of college, which was pretty fortunate. I sought that opportunity very aggressively as I do most things in life. And I got an opportunity to kind of just like, it was like a sandbox truthfully, like for what, what it's worth, I guess I was under minimal leadership direction. And so I, I was able to kind of just go play you know, I, I had these raw skills of, of copywriting and I didn't know anything about PPC, you know, at that time we're talking like, what is it? Early two thousands, like Facebook ads, wasn't even a thing, which is wild to admit that and Google AdWords was like the thing, right?
Will (03:16):
Like you did SEO and AdWords and if you could figure that out, like you'd crush it. So I taught myself SEO and PPC. Like I taught myself like back in those days, like organic was still massive. Yeah, with Facebook, Instagram didn't even exist yet. And you know, like I, I had to teach myself those things and I'm I'm, I still can, carry that me of something that I'm very proud of, because I think in, in today today's society, day and age, et cetera, we have to take ownership of our own development. And it's something that I share a lot with young, you know, young up and coming marketers and things is like, no, one's gonna give you anything. Like so many people expect stuff to be handed to them nowadays in my opinion. And I think that once we take accountability for our own development, like the sky is limitless.
Will (04:10):
And the reason that I bring that up is, is if I didn't, if, if that's where my marketing career didn't start, I don't think that I would be an entrepreneur and a business owner today. And that, that's why I think that that very early kind of like opportunity was very important to, to owning a business now, is that like, there was nobody to guide me other than myself, and like, to be able to get me to the place that I'm at in that first marketing job started with someone handing me a camera and which I do didn't even really know how to do. And like I went to the back of a, of the driving range. We used to coach elite, junior golfers, and it was like, Hey kid, good luck straight up. Like, it that's exactly how it was. And, and I, I then moved into director of sales and marketing of that company.
Will (04:58):
I wound up selling several million of dollars in high ticket sales over the phone. I learned high ticket sales. At that time, I was selling a hundred thousand dollars program over the phone to families, convincing them to send me their kids from halfway around the world. Like, and like I was in this very unique environment where I could just learn a ton. And you know, so marketing manager, director of sales and marketing ultimately was demoted actually to director of marketing. Meanwhile, I helped that company double its revenue. I was the main like chief. I was the CMO at that point, a lot of philosophical differences, long story short that's when I realized like, it's time for me to go. And that's when I started freelancing. So I started freelancing working with my own clients, started getting pretty good at it. Then I was like, Hey, like I should create an agency out of this.
Will (05:56):
And that's where we are today. So six years later, you know, have a pretty successful ad agency. We work exclusively with high spending advertisers in the e-com and info space. We position ourselves strategically as an ad optimization service. Like we don't help startups launch. We don't help validate new ideas. Like we help six figure a month advertisers reduce their customer acquisition costs so they can double their ad spend and double their revenue. And so we've gotten very good at optimizing paid traffic and that's what we focus on today. And now I also train media buyers to get to a, an elite level. And that's the other area of the business that we're growing within the last like six months is we train in-house media buyers to do what we've become very good at doing, which is testing and scaling systems and processes. And then we also work with like freelance contractors, media buyers, and agency owners to them, the internal processes that we've created. And that is a much more scalable business than an ad agency. I'll tell you
Kathleen (07:05):
That. Amen. Because I owned an agency for 11 years and there's a reason that I don't own one now, which was scalability, was a nightmare. So good for you for productizing, some of what you're doing. I think that's awesome. Appreciate I love your, your story too, because I, I, I am much the same way. Like I started my agency cuz I was frustrated with, you know, how, how other organizations were doing things. I wanted the freedom to do them the way I thought I could do them. I was also a very scrappy learner and taught myself pretty much everything I knew. And I think I've always seen over the years of the people who are very hungry, kind of, I call it having a high, figure, it out factor people who have a high figure, it out factor are very prone to be successful in marketing, cuz it changes so quickly.
Kathleen (07:51):
Right. Like I actually did do an MBA in marketing. I wouldn't say it prepared me at all for career in marketing. You know, and everything I learned, like there was a lot of great theoretical stuff back then, but honestly like it didn't teach you how to do the job at all. Yeah. And you had to figure it out yourself. So kudos to you. Appreciate, I'm really excited to talk about the advertising stuff. Because we, you mentioned that you guys specialize in eCommerce and and you said in, in, was it info? What was the other? E-Com and info?
Will (08:23):
Yep.
Kathleen (08:24):
Okay. So we sell my company that I work for sells a SaaS product into e-commerce. And so I watch the conversation going on, particularly on Twitter, amongst like the DTC crowd. And it's really interesting how everybody is obsessed right now with TikTok and yeah, there are a lot of people that listen to this podcast who are in B2B and, and might be asking themselves right now, is this conversation gonna be relevant to them? And I wanna say absolutely. Yes. Like if you're thinking of stopping listening, do not do that because I think what's happening in e-commerce is very much the headlights of what's gonna come to B2B. We're
Will (09:03):
Having stuff with B2B for as well with TikTok. Yeah.
Kathleen (09:07):
And we're gonna talk a little bit about that as well. But I was gonna say like B2B is not immune from the problems that e-commerce has had with declining Facebook ad results in particular like the iOS 14.5 issues with you know, retargeting, et cetera, it's happening across the board. It's not exclusive to e-com the, the only difference is that the e-commerce industry has built its entire business on driving sales through their ad funnels. And so the pain is more acute there and they're forced to shift gears and find new avenues that are gonna be successful more quickly than B2B is. And so it's all happening to B2B as well. So if you, you should listen and, and definitely lots of good takeaways. So with that as the, the kind of like entree into this topic. Yeah.
Will (09:55):
Good. Preframe yep. Yeah.
Kathleen (09:57):
Let's talk about TikTok. Absolutely. And I wanna start cuz I, I did, I mentioned to you before we started talking that yesterday, one of the venture capital firms that's invested in my company did a online session with one of the heads of product at TikTok. And it was really interesting for me to listen. And the big takeaway I had is around the algorithm and how it's different. And this is where I I'd love to start our conversation. And the point that he was making is that a lot of the other platforms, LinkedIn, meta, et cetera the, the algorithm has more to do with audience and audience demographics and things along those lines. Whereas on TikTok, the algorithm is entirely focused on content and content performance. And so I wonder if you could dig into that a little bit more and just tell me in your words with what you've seen, what are the keys to the TikTok algorithm in particular?
Will (10:55):
Yeah. remember back in like the early two thousands, probably late 19. Wow. Late 1990s dating myself as well when they used to say content is king like, oh yeah, that is the thing again. Especially when it comes to TikTok and I've got a couple like good takeaways that relate to exactly what you just said. But the creative man, how important is the creative right now for TikTok? It is so important. Like I can't even underestimate how important it is, like so much more important than even Facebook and Instagram and, and even it's gotten more important there after iOS and, and we can chat about some of that as well. But a couple key things like a couple key takeaways in pitfalls here just right out of the gate businesses brands, however we wanna categorize them underestimate the amount of creative that they need to run TikTok it's if you think it's a number, probably multiply that times five, the ad creative fatigues so quickly, like I'm talking seven days max and it's because the best performing ad creatives in content on TikTok are very trend end oriented.
Will (12:13):
Like you have to be, you have to develop content that follows a trend. And just another quick little segue of that, that'll relate back to your original point of how important the algorithm is with content. TikTok will penalize you through CPM if your content is not resonating with the audience. And I think, you know, whether you are a media buyer, a marketing director, an agency owner, whoever is listening, a marketing executive at an internal brand, like you should be analyzing CPM. And I find that, and this is why I train and coach media buyers is because so many people don't know how to read KPIs and the best KPI to, to analyze Facebook or TikTok is your CPM, not your row as not your cost for acquisition because we're seeing five and $10 CPMs on TikTok. Right now. We're also seeing 30 and $40 CPMs on TikTok when we do a bad job with the creative. And that happens on Facebook as well, but I don't think people pay attention to it, but it's for lack of better words, it's, it's exacerbated significantly with TikTok, which really drives home the point of what you were suggesting that how important the algorithm is with, with content.
Kathleen (13:31):
So there's two ways that brands can engage on there's organic and then there's paid. Yeah. When you think about like, if you're, if you were talking to, well, you are talking to a brand that is looking at getting started on TikTok. How do you think about, or how do you suggest to brands that they should think about the breakdown between organic and paid?
Will (13:57):
I mean, I really it's like left brain and right brain really. Like, I think they're two very different things in, in how you would approach it. However, what I would say is the best, the best ad creatives on TikTok right now are extremely native. Like, and when, I mean native, I mean, it looks like an IG story that your friend posted in Instagram, like, I mean that native, like the, the slightest hint of like the sense that a watcher engager, et cetera, would get of the content being an ad. I mean, we're are seeing it right away, CPMs, quadruple, you know because it just, that's not what people are on TikTok for. Right? Like they will engage with the content if it's, if it's very natural, if it's very organic to, for lack of a better use of a descriptor, like when you're running paid, make it look organic. And like, I know that people have been saying that as well for a while with Facebook, but like, you will be penalized significantly more on TikTok through your CPMs. If your, if your content looks like an ad.
Kathleen (15:11):
So are you basically saying like, cuz I've heard something along these lines and I wanna make sure we're kind of talking about the same thing. Like I've heard that like a lot of brands have this seem to have this instinct to want everything to be really polished. And people have said to me like, no, don't do it. Like don't use a fancy camera, don't hire a great editor. Like no,
Will (15:32):
Everything we're running is shot from an iPhone. Like, and which truth
Kathleen (15:37):
Be told iPhone cameras are amazing these days. So like you, even if you wanted it to be polished, you probably don't need anything other than an iPhone.
Will (15:44):
Yeah. Like, and I think this is one of the biggest struggles and this, this I'm glad you brought that up because this point remains to be mostly true for Facebook and, and Instagram right now as well that like the more branded your content is like, it's just not gonna work. Like as well as, as native content. And that's consistent with Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. And you know, even like these big corporate brands, like even like mid-market, let's say midmarket anywhere from 10 to 50 million, you know, they wonder why their cost per acquisition is so high it's because like one thing that I always say, and, and I'll intentionally bleep myself is like people like no one gives a bleep about your brand until you're a hundred million. And so like I think brands screw this up all the time where like they just need to develop content that engages educates and entertains. And if you focus on that first versus pushing your brand, you will be significantly more successful. And by success in defining that further, your CPAs and your cost for acquisition and more often, your return will be better by focusing on being native and not by being polished.
Kathleen (17:00):
So question on this, if assuming that to be true, where I, where my mind goes and I am the furthest thing from a talk expert. So that's, I'm gonna ask all the dumb questions so that people listening don't feel like that they need to no worries. Like what I would assume from what you just said is that then like pretty much anything I'm creating organically on TikTok would be worth throwing some add dollars behind to test. Is that yeah. Like, is that true or are there organic things you create that you shouldn't advertise?
Will (17:30):
I mean, yeah, you still wanna have, like, we follow a framework you know, where it, we kind of call it the winning ad formula where you still wanna have a compelling hook. You still want to demonstrate the problem. You still want to demonstrate the solution and then give a call to action, but you want it to be facilitated it in a way that is through that lens of E engage and entertain, you know, versus like being overly direct response. You wanna use direct response principles of engage and entertain through a lens that is very organic or native. And so one way that you can do that of like, what you just mentioned is let's say you have a bunch of organic content. You can run what's called spark ads, or essentially you can get approval from an influencer or a content creator where you can run that content as an ad through, you know, the TikTok ads manager.
Will (18:27):
And those are absolutely worth testing because the best performing content or ad creative on TikTok right now is essentially a product demo slash testimonial video, you know, like an on boxing video where like think skincare brand, I get the box to my house, you know the you know, the creator or in this case customers like, oh my God, I just got my, my all natural, you know, skincare brand, you know, it does this, this and this. Like, I love how it feels on my skin. It works like this 1, 2, 3. If you're interested in checking it out click the secret link from my AB you know, from my video, you know, right. You kind of loose, you know, framework there, but very native, like testimonial review style video content is really what's working best for honestly like lead gen and you know, DTC you know, econ
Kathleen (19:26):
So fair to say that if you have organic content for TikTok, that is purely like entertaining in nature, that's something you wouldn't put ad dollars behind because per your, what you just said, like it doesn't have the hook, it doesn't have the call to action. Yeah. So there are probably are times when you might just wanna entertain just purely. Like, I always think of it as the balance on any social profile. You only want so much of it to be about you and then you need some, that's just fun. And so maybe that's what you don't put your ad dollars behind, but anything else that is like at all product focus, you can push ad dollars on that being said, what are the different types of ads on TikTok? Like I I've never even seen the ads platform. Yeah.
Will (20:08):
So so what are the different types of ads? I mean, you know, you can basically run, you know, video content, which is gonna be your main, you know, your main kind of video, but you can run, you know, awareness campaigns, you can run conversion campaigns, you can run traffic campaigns, but, you know, if, if, you know, if we're talking, like how do I generate sales from ads? You know, you're for sure going to run conversion campaigns.
Kathleen (20:33):
And are they conversion campaigns simply because TikTok is optimizing for it's optimizing the bid for what's converting.
Will (20:40):
Exactly. Okay. So something that's actually really important to point out, like this is a little bit old school or circa like maybe 20 16, 20 17 Facebook where you used to have to work through the optimization events. So anybody that's been running, you know, Facebook ads for like five, six years, you probably, or more you remember back in the day when like you'd have to launch an ad account where you would actually have, have to optimize for add to cart first, then optimize for initiate checkout, then optimize for purchase. So like, if anyone is struggling with TikTok right now and getting it off the ground, it's because you literally need to run one ad set at 50 or a hundred dollars a day for add to carts first, get those 50 conversions in a seven day window, then duplicate that same exact test, that same exact ad set, and then move down the funnel to initiate checkout, for example, get 50 conversions in a seven day period, then move to purchase.
Kathleen (21:46):
Why that process in Y 50.
Will (21:48):
So it's in order to be able to exit learning. It's the same with Facebook as well, where like the TikTok algorithm works such that in order for it to efficiently and effectively optimize for the event that you're looking for, which is eventually purchase TikTok once you know, 50 add to carts first, then 50 in a initiate checkouts so that you can optimize effectively for purchases after that. So it's probably gonna take you two to three weeks. And everybody's, you know, everybody wants to get the purchases so fast. We wanna J generate ROI right away, but, you know, we've gotta spend maybe a couple grand first on the algorithm and the pixel, I should say more, more clearly optimize the pixel so that we can have the ability to really scale the platform. And it takes some discipline out of the gate to make that happen.
Kathleen (22:42):
So how does that change or does it change if we're talking about B2B?
Will (22:48):
Doesn't really change from B2B, I mean, leads are a heck of a lot easier to get than purchases.
Kathleen (22:53):
So that's where you would start. Cause I was gonna say like some B2B it's very considered purchases, so you're not gonna get like 50.
Will (23:00):
Right?
Kathleen (23:00):
In a week necessarily. So like how do you have to change your thinking?
Will (23:04):
Yeah. So you'd optimize for view content first similar, like with Facebook as well, so optimize for view content, and then you can flip it for leads you know, on the B2B side.
Kathleen (23:14):
Okay. Okay, great. And then you, so there's, there's like how you're optimizing your ads, meaning are you, are you optimizing for top, middle or bottom of the funnel?
Will (23:25):
Yep.
Kathleen (23:25):
And then are there different ad formats? Cause you said something about like a spark ad earlier and that got me thinking, are there types of ad formats that we should be aware of?
Will (23:33):
Yeah. The main ad format is going to be video. Overall there's a variety of different placements for sure. Like TikTok has its own like audience network similar to, you know, meta Facebook, et cetera. Even TikTok themselves recommends not running to those placements. They do recommend excluding those and just running, you know, the TikTok feed only spark ads is essentially like, like getting permission from an influencer or maybe even a customer. Like if customers are posting videos about the product, you'd then just go to, you know Jane DOE and you'd say, Hey, Jane DOE, can I run your, your content as an ad? They'd say yes, that they then approve it. And then that ad loads into your ads manager, and then you can run it as a post kind of like Facebook.
Kathleen (24:25):
So UGC basically.
Will (24:27):
Yeah. UGC. Yeah. Which that's what TikTok is all about. It's all UGC.
Kathleen (24:32):
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. How about so there's, there's organic UGC user generated content in the sense that like you realize somebody's super psyched about your product, they're posting something, you reach out to them, Hey, can I promote this? And then there is engineered UGC, which is the classic influencer marketing. And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't TikTok have a creator marketplace.
Will (24:56):
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. So yes, they have a creator marketplace and think when you think of TikTok ads and this is for anybody really think like what TikTok did was they, they merged influencer marketing and paid social, and that's how you are most effective with TikTok is like think anything that you ever used to think about affiliates and influencers, and then blend that with, with paid social, like you're familiar with, with Facebook and that's the best way to basically TikTok. So yeah, essentially like what we've done over the last year is we've created our own creator network through the creator marketplace. So we've sourced talent, we've tested a bunch of creators out. We've found out who's good, who's not good. And you know, anybody, once you become at the agency level, once you become a premier partner, you have the ability to leverage creator marketplace and work directly with creators and how it works is you simply have to pay them to generate the content. And it's really, honestly, it's still very affordable. You can get a video for a hundred bucks, like and
Kathleen (26:09):
Does it work like Instagram or Facebook? I'm assuming it does where they have to label it, but it's kind of a paid relationship.
Will (26:16):
No. So actually they provide you the raw and organic video. So like they'll literally send you the MP4 or the MOV file, and then you can still upload it as anyone's used to uploading a video as an ad creative into the ad platform.
Kathleen (26:30):
Okay. Okay. So then it's, you don't have to label it because it's coming through you and therefore it's obvious that's paid. So it's not like you're asking them to, like, if, if you asked them to post it, does it have to be labeled as paid partnership or software?
Will (26:43):
You could tag it. Yeah, exactly.
Kathleen (26:45):
Okay. Interesting. So let's talk about CPMs because you mentioned that, and that's the thing that I keep hearing from people that the CPMs are so much lower on TikTok. What order of magnitude lower are you seeing?
Will (27:01):
Yeah, I mean it transparently, like we still run a lot of like, so a lot of the traffic we run is especially on the e-comm side, like a lot of health and wellness, like style offers like healthy foods, healthy snacks, stuff like that. I mean we see stuff where like, and we're still successful at this level where, you know, $30 CPMs on Facebook for certain like are not that bad. We do still have some accounts where like Facebook CPMs are in the $10 range, but I'd say more often than not most. And I even think, and my, my stats might be a little outdated here. So definitely asking for grace, I'd say the, the average CPM that I see most industries product related 15 to $20, like which is still not that bad, but it's not like the $10 average that it was, you know, even two years ago on the Facebook side, on the TikTok side, like we're scaling at multiple thousands of dollars a day for several accounts at five to $7 CPMs like, wow.
Will (28:08):
Whereas like same content, same kind of general targeting on Facebook, you know, probably 15, 20 bucks, maybe even a little bit more for the same offer essentially. So yeah, they're significantly lower. But yet, and again, transparently like where, when we've screwed up the ad creative even like let's say we're using the same targeting, which is like 25 to 45 female for the account that we're getting good CPM, six to seven bucks, same targeting 35 plus female, not the right creative, like we've seen 30 and $40 CPMs on tick talk because we haven't, we were too a oriented with the creative. And so like, you'll get that immediate response and feedback, like, you know, we're not perfect either, but yeah, I mean significantly lower. Like I don't really see unless you're marketing outside of the us. Like, I don't really see a whole lot of sub $10 CPM stuff anymore on Facebook and Instagram. Like what we're seeing on TikTok,
Kathleen (29:10):
You just raised something. Okay. There's two things I wanna come back and ask questions about, but yeah, first one is you just said something important, which is unless you're marketing outside of the us. And I did hear one thing on this call yesterday that I think it's important for people to be aware of. And it was actually a, from India who had a company, but they were targeting the us market with their ads and they had a lot of trouble because their ad account was set up in India. And the TikTok product manager said, actually, you probably wanna scrap that account, create a new account in the us because the algorithm does look at like the origination point of the account in terms of like how it optimizes for the audience it's serving to, which I thought was super interesting because like I'm used to on Facebook just picking my geographic audience and it does what I tell it, right. Like if I say I wanna target people here that's to what it does. Whereas it sounds like if I heard this correctly with TikTok, the actual like place your account is created, or at least where you tag it as the creation point has some bearing on your, where you're able to market effectively.
Will (30:15):
Yeah. I have to be honest. I actually haven't heard that yet. And we've had meetings with
Kathleen (30:19):
Product breaking news.
Will (30:21):
Yeah. So I'll have to definitely look into that further. That's pretty, pretty interesting and good advice for, for everyone to know as well. Definitely something that I'll, I'll circle back to and, you know, even follow up with you as well.
Kathleen (30:36):
This was just one, it was one question in a Q&A and I was like, oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah, not something anybody would know when they were getting started. Right.
Will (30:46):
Yeah, totally. You know, as, as you know, like not something that, you know, we commonly see on the paid social side of like with Snapchat or Facebook or TikTok or I'm sorry Instagram but to go back to that other thing that you mentioned about like marketing outside of the us, like I think another trend right now that we're seeing with a lot of e-com, especially based in the us and this is non TikTok related is the emphasis to market outside of the us. Like some, a couple of our biggest advertisers right now within the agency side are selling physical product outside of the us and doing it. It very well at multiple six figure a month spend. Wow. and so if I'm an e-com brand and I'm like, how do I optimize? Like we're still crushing it with Facebook, by the way, like Facebook is still performing extremely well. Like is it pre iOS? Like, is it like mid pandemic performance? No, I feel
Kathleen (31:43):
Like CAC has just gone up.
Will (31:46):
Yes and no. Like, I mean, the reason that I say no is because I'm such a firm believer in split testing, like we're still reducing CAC at six figure month spends for many, many brands. Like like for example we've got this one account that they spend, you know, probably like 200 K a month on Facebook. Like we just brought the cack down 25%, just last month at 200 K a month spend. And we've been working on that account for like 16 months. So it is still possible. And the only way that it was possible was through optimization of messaging. Like we didn't change the funnel. Like we didn't even really change our targeting. Like it's really just about our understanding of the messaging. And we test probably 10 times more than most advertisers will test within the platform because that's like our secret sauce.
Will (32:35):
Like we pitch ourselves as optimization experts and like we're gonna do more things than most people are willing to do. And so, so yes, in some areas, have I seen CAC rise? Yes. But I've also seen especially, and I'm a huge advocate and transparently, I'm an affiliate of HYROS, but I, I am a huge believer in third party attribution software. Like if I was an, if I was an e-com an info, a B2B and I'm spending six figures a month on ads, mandatory, absolutely mandatory to be using something like HYROS or how do you spell that? H Y R O S.
Kathleen (33:14):
Okay.
Will (33:15):
So basically AI attribution in that takes all of your data into place to true last click, not view through true last click attribution, which honestly like has been a big part of our success in the last year because we started using this stuff like almost 12 to 18 months before iOS hit. And so like if you're an advertiser right now and you're still struggling even with Facebook or even TikTok and you're spending six figures a month or more like, I highly recommend using HYROS or something like HYROS, like I haven't used Triple Whale. I haven't used Red Track. We've used wicked reports a little bit, but we've stuck with HIROS for the last two and a half years. And you know, if you're a seven figure brand, like I would highly recommend getting that implemented and working with someone who knows how to use it.
Kathleen (34:12):
Yeah. That's great advice. So the next question I have is on targeting, cuz you started talking about this and what I wanna understand is we've talked about how the algorithm is very content focused on TikTok, but you do still have the ability to do targeting. And so what should folks know if they're used to doing advertising on a platform like meta, what should they know about targeting on TikTok?
Will (34:35):
Yeah. If anything actually TikTok is showing let me think of how I wanna this cuz I've never described it this way before, like on TikTok, even though they've added some additional niche interests in TikTok, it's still very broad. And so there's two ways of thinking of broad. You've got broad in the sense of no targeting. I'm just gonna target females 25 to 45, that's it. Or males 25 to 45, no lookalikes, no interest. That's like true broad what we call open, no targeting. Then on the other side, you've got broad where it's like, you know, interested in health and wellness, a very broad interest. That's not a niche interest. Like a niche interest would be like, you know smoothies. Right, right. Like interested in smoothies, which like a lot of the niche interests are what have gone away in Facebook. But like TikTok is still very broad even at like its interest targeting level.
Will (35:41):
And so the way that I wanna try to tie this together to help make some sense of it for, you know, your listeners and, and anybody who's running paid social is that, you know, if you've struggled with the ability to go broad, which people talking about, right. Like that is a conversation right now, like, oh, we're going broad and we're having so much success. Like, well, how do you do that? Well, you actually do that through your messaging. Like you do that through what we call message driven, targeting and calling out your ideal avatar through your messaging. So like one of the best examples, an example that I always go back to all the time is like, think about TV ads. So think about TV ads when you are hearing a commercial for some sort of like medicine, right? And it's like, Hey, do you have rheumatoid arthritis and suffer from fatigue, et cetera, et cetera.
Will (36:42):
Like that's message driven, targeting where you're running the ad in a broad setup, AKA ESPN, CNN, CBS, ABC. And you're speaking to a subset of a very large audience. This is what paid social advertisers screw up is like, we forget that our messaging is what drives our targeting. Not like being able to hack our way into the ad platform and like the ad platform. So good. Cuz there's so much data, but like the ones that are still successful are the ones that know how to write. Great copy. That's like when, so like Tarantino moment, going back to the beginning of our chat when it was like the people who are really successful right now and paid social are the ones that are great at copy. Right.
Kathleen (37:32):
Oh, sorry, go, go ahead. Sorry.
Will (37:33):
I, I can rant all day long.
Kathleen (37:34):
No, I was gonna say so. So I always hear people I know who are prolific Facebook advertisers. A lot of of them tell me that when you first start advertising on Facebook, you wanna go super broad. Like you wanna do almost like no targeting because you wanna let Facebook figure it out for you. Is it the same thing on TikTok? Like I don't know when somebody's just getting started. How broad do you wanna go?
Will (37:58):
Yeah. I have a little bit of a different personal philosophy and view on that is that like, I actually wanna use broad interests first, then go broad meaning no targeting. And the reason for that is I wanna give Facebook a little bit of information as like a fighting chance.
Kathleen (38:15):
Yeah.
Will (38:16):
As best that I possibly can and then eventually open it a up even more by like removing the targeting. Okay. Overall, but that still kind of drives home the point that like your messaging is so important in your ad, whether it's a TikTok video or whether it's, you know, a Facebook like ad copy, like the better and more specific the messaging is as it relates to a, either a niche audience or a mass market audience, you know, the more successful your campaigns will be. And so you know, I would approach it very much the same way with TikTok is I would start with those and this is how we do it on our side is we start with these very large interests, AKA health and wellness, or like one of the ones we're running right now is like, is like towards hair loss.
Will (39:07):
So surprisingly that's like a big targetable interest in TikTok. And like we run all of our campaigns to two audiences, broad and hair loss and like you're scaling through what we call single ad scaling by developing winning ads, scaling those two, those individual winning ads to three, four or $500 a day. And then having multiple winning ads stacking that. And that's how you get to, you know, a few grand a day minimum with those, you know, targetable interests. And I would say nowadays, this is kind of like a, a niche sort of point, but like we're not as worried about audience overlap and things like that, that like Facebook used to preach so much about because as the, as the targeting's going away, like you have no choice put to stack, you know, setups, you know, together in order to scale.
Kathleen (39:59):
Yeah. All right. I wanna do a couple questions, rapid fire style, cuz I wanna make sure I save enough time for some of the questions I have at the end. Awesome. And these are getting a little tactical. So bear with me. The first question is you talked about stacking ads and things like structurally within the ads manager of TikTok. And I know everybody probably has different opinions on this, but like how do you like to structure ads in terms of campaigns versus ads? Like, are you lumping everything into one kind of campaign group? Are you, how are you, how are you organizing that?
Will (40:32):
Yeah. Great question. So we rapid fire, so all rapid fire.
Kathleen (40:37):
So sorry you have to somehow answer this quickly.
Will (40:40):
Yeah. So we implement a four phased structure. So we progress through our campaign setup with situational decision making. So the simple answer is it's very segmented so that we have control over the algorithm versus the algorithm having control over us. And so that is the same for Facebook and TikTok.
Kathleen (41:04):
Okay. second question is if somebody's getting started and they're testing TikTok is there a certain number of ads they should start with and, and is there a certain budget daily budget that they should start with?
Will (41:16):
Yeah, a great question. I would go to bat with a minimum of six to eight videos and I would target two to $300 a day minimum.
Kathleen (41:26):
Per video or total?
Will (41:28):
Total. So, so you would want to be testing at about $50 per day per ad. Okay. That's gonna range based on what your usual CPA is, but that's a good benchmark. And it obviously is more customized depending on the, the niche or industry.
Kathleen (41:45):
Okay. next question. How long once you launch those six to eight videos at whatever, not that was per day now, I've forgotten already. How long do you let them run before you get you believe you have enough data to make an informed decision to keep cut. Adjust. Yep.
Will (42:02):
Yeah, so we, we teach kill points at two times CPA at the ad group level. So Facebook it's ad set TikTok it's ad group. So we like to let an ad run up the two times CPA target CPA,
Kathleen (42:17):
Sorry, CPA. Got it. Got it. Okay. What have I not asked that I should have?
Will (42:24):
Ooh, what have I, what have you not asked that you should have? I'd say like, if I were starting out, like what ad creative, you know, would I, what should I run? Like what should I do? Like what I look for? I think I have this note that we have from our internal meeting the other day. Talk to me as if you were talking to a friend or girlfriend in your IG story, that's the lens that I want the creative through. Not a hard sell, very disruptive educate, entertain, engage very organic, like, like an IG story. I'm not like an ad. So I think that like what creative should I run? Run it as if you were posting a story to your friend.
Kathleen (43:08):
That makes sense. Yeah. All right. Now I wanna ask you who is doing this well, and I would love one or two examples from the summer world versus where you're mostly focused, but if you have any examples from the B2B world, I would love that as well. Yeah.
Will (43:23):
So I would say like on the, on the what's the word I'm looking for? Like well known brand side of things, I guess. Smile direct club is doing a very good job with their ad right now there, because we run a lot of traffic in the personal care sort of product space. Like that's a brand that we look at a fair amount for inspo. So something that's really cool, slightly off topic, but related TikTok has an ad library that actually shows top performing ads, not even just like ads, but like top performance
Kathleen (43:59):
Ads. Oh, that's awesome.
Will (44:01):
So you can see the engagement on ads and things like that. Like kind of a ninja ninja, ninja knowings there. So smile, direct club is one you know, we develop creative for on it. They're doing really well. We, we have a we're part partnered with an, with an agency that, where they run the traffic and we develop the creative. So a little bit of a, a shameless name drop, but yeah, we're developing a lot of creative for, for on it right now. And on it has done really well Testament to max fin who does a great job with that. They run the traffic
Kathleen (44:36):
On it is how do you spell that? I wanna make sure I get that correct.
Will (44:39):
O N N I T that's the one that Joe Rogan is a big backer of on the supplement side. And then some of the other stuff that, that we developed create to four, at least on the B2B side, like solar, like solar on B2B leg gen even though it's like B2C kind of, but like B2B on, on that side they're doing a really, like, we're seeing a lot of really low cost leads on, on that side.
Kathleen (45:08):
Is that S O L A R?
Will (45:09):
Yeah. Like solar, like, you know, so older, like we're, we're used to. But I would, you know, aside from that, I'd go check out that top ads library. You can access that through like your, your ads manager, your, your ABM actually that's agency business manager, but, but yeah, you can, you can access top ads library you know, when you log into your accounts that's and you can look at it by, by industry as well. So yeah, definitely would recommend checking that out.
Kathleen (45:39):
Cool. That is a great tip. Thank you. Absolutely. All right. We're gonna shift gears and I have two questions. I ask every guest at the end of the interview. The first is, this is a great example of this, like marketing is changing so quickly. There's always new. How do you personally stay up to date and keep current?
Will (45:55):
Yeah, so I'm in masterminds. I'm in several like paid Facebook groups and things like that. I've, I'm kind of obsessed with this stuff. So personally, so like I you know, I talk a lot with peers and you know, I'm constantly in content sometimes to my own detriment where like, I literally need a break. And so I think, I think if you wanna be successful in this space, you've gotta be in the conversation right now. Like I do go to some conferences and I'll be speaking at Geek Out, you know, later here in, in September. Appreciate Nick Shackleford for the opportunity and you know, so like I'm very, very and maybe I'm not the most like informed, but like I'm very, very tapped in. And I think it's very important to be tapped in because of how much this stuff changes like month to month. So a lot of podcasts a lot of YouTube videos Facebook groups, like I'm in ad leagues, I'm in a very high level mastermind with other media buyers and agency owners. Like I consume a lot of content talk with peers, you know, things like that. So that's a pretty daily behavior for me personally. Yeah.
Kathleen (47:13):
That sounds from what we started this whole conversation with. It does not surprise me.
Will (47:17):
So
Kathleen (47:18):
True. Very cool. All right. Second question is this podcast is all about inbound marketing, which I really describe, not in the classic sense of like the HubSpot throw up an ebook and get a bunch of leads, but more as anything that naturally attracts the right customer to you. And so is there a certain individual or brand that you think is really like nailing what it means to be a great inbound marketer these days?
Will (47:44):
You mean as like a like how they're going about their Legion strategy, you basically,
Kathleen (47:49):
Yeah.
Will (47:51):
Yeah. there's one for sure. That's on my mind and I I'm sure he would love the fact that I'm mentioning his company Cole Gordon anybody who's not familiar with Cole Gordon and Remote Closers Academy. They are absolutely crushing Facebook and YouTube ads and sales training right now. They are a sales training agency. We actually do sales training with their company. Some of my guys go through the sales training. I've also gone through their sales training. This is a Testament to, to like, when you really nail your vertical, like people talk about you, right? And like, I have no incentive to talk about these guys other than knowing like how good their sales training is. And they've gone from like zero to 3 million a month in like two years. So they're absolutely crushing it. They're crushing you know, lead gen through YouTube and Facebook and, you know, they sell high ticket, like, and I think that's the other thing is that high ticket still does incredibly well through Facebook, Google, YouTube, what has become very difficult is products sub hundred bucks.
Will (49:02):
So like, if your e-com find a way to sell something that's greater than a hundred dollars, or honestly change your expectations and for focus on backend monetization and lifetime value and know that you need to play a different game than everybody else, like Dan Kennedy always said he who spends the most to acquire customer wins. And like, if we just neglect to like, realize that like, yeah, we're gonna blame our at each agencies and our media buying teams and our in-house marketing team for like not being successful, but in reality, we have a business model problem.
Kathleen (49:39):
Yeah. So that's a great point. Yeah. All right. Lots of great nuggets in this one. Thank you. I mean, this has been super informative and it's so timely for me, cuz I literally got off a call right before this interview with my head of growth where we were talking about starting to experiment on TikTok. So I just feel like going back to my point about free consulting. Thank you so much. Yeah.
Will (49:59):
Yeah. You're welcome.
Kathleen (50:00):
It's awesome. If somebody is listening to this and they wanna learn more about what you do or reason agency, or they have a question and wanna connect with you, what is the best way for them to do that?
Will (50:11):
Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate that. And best of luck to your TikTok ad efforts, hopefully this was valuable for everyone who will listen. If you are an E eCom brand, you know, seven figure eight figure ecom brand and you wanna reduce your customer acquisition cost and still grow you know, go to Reasonagency.co. We do yeah. Initial free audits for everybody. So definitely check that out, set up a, a free strategy call. If you are an agency owner or you have in-house media buyers that you want to get to elite level with your media buying tactic and strategy, a lot of like what I've discussed and shared today, like how to spend six figure and seven figure budgets more effectively and more efficiently go to elitemediabuyersacademy.com. That's where we train media buyers or just find me on LinkedIn. Find me on LinkedIn Will Perry. You know, you'll see all the references to Reason and all the things there. So I know the key is like one call to action, but there's three there.
Kathleen (51:14):
No that's awesome. Three,
Will (51:16):
You know, LinkedIn or elite media buyers academy me and, and check out, you know, if we can help you.
Kathleen (51:21):
Yeah. And I will put all of those links into the show notes. So head to Kathleen-booth.com, if you want to connect with Will or check out any of the things that he just mentioned. In the meantime, if you enjoyed this episode, I would love it. If you would head to apple podcast and leave the podcast or review so that others can find us. And if you know someone else doing amazing inbound marketing work, tweet me at @Kathleenlbooth and I will, would love to make them my next guest. That's it for this week. Thank you so much Will.
Will (51:52):
Pleasure. Thank you as well.
