Vyara Ndejuru | Late Checkout
What is Web3, what does it mean for marketers, and how can it be leveraged to build community?
Late Checkout is a thesis-driven Web3 community and holding company that is focused on the nexus between Web3 and community, and CMO Vyarda Ndejuru explains what that means, and what marketers should know about how Web3 may change the future of community building.
From defining what Web3, crypto, the blockchain and NFTs are (in plain English!), to explaining why DAOs (those are centralized autonomous organizations for my fellow Web3 newbies) are going to fundamentally change how communities operate, to how to monetize your community, Vyara breaks it all down in a way that is understandable and actionable. And, she shares some of the ways, including memberships, access cards, subscription models, and commerce, that B2B companies could take advantage of Web3 and NFTs.
Check out the full episode to hear what Vyara had to say.
Resources from this episode:
Connect with Vyara on LinkedIn
Follow Vyara on Twitter
Learn more about Late Checkout
Join the Late Checkout community on Discord
Check out the Jump Discord community
Vyara and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:00):
Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I am your host Kathleen Booth. And this week I'm so excited to have as my guest Vyara Ndejuru who is the CMO of Late Checkout. Welcome to the podcast Vyara.
Vyara (00:32):
Thank you for having me, Kathleen, excited to be here.
Kathleen (00:34):
I am really excited to have you. This is the second in a series of at least three, if not more interviews that doing around the theme of Web3, crypto, blockchain, NFTs, that sort of basket of acronyms and topics that I think we as marketers are hearing so much about. But I will just say, at least for myself, there's so much I have to learn about it. And so I'm thrilled to dig in into this topic a little bit more with you because you're doing some very interesting work on it. So let's just start with a little bit about you and your background and what Late Checkout is.
Vyara (01:14):
Sounds good. So I'm like a lot of marketers started out in, in CPG. I think what I loved the most in my career pretech was everything around the consumer insights of things. I think as marketers, we're really fundamentally fascinated by people. What makes them tick? Why, why do they buy, what does it make them feel? Why do they repeat? Why do they churn? So lots of whys and there's a real discipline practice around understanding a consumer and CPG that I, that I take with me to this day. And I think a real curiosity about, you know, why do people do what they do? And so I moved from CPG into tech and I worked in B2B software at an AI company. We were extremely lucky because if you know, Montreal a little bit, there is quite a network of not just scientists, but also high grade quality schools that turn out a significant amount of PhDs, et cetera. And it is a city and a government that is ProTech. So there's a significant amount of investments in developing new technologies. So there's a whole ecosystem of things that, that created and, and, and creates opportunities for companies like the one I was working at worked there for, for quite a while. But it was acquired in early 20, 21. Time stands still. So it's hard to tell like what year are we in even?
Vyara (02:40):
And, and and at that point I think I was, I was at a job share. Do I want to go back into a really large corporate environment? The company they acquired was the biggest sized company I would've ever been in. It's over a hundred thousand people in terms of size. And I realized that, no, I think one of the things I really liked and the AI scale up that I was in is this this impact. So the ability to impact the company I was in by, by creating some sort of contribution that was visible and corporate environments are great for a lot of things, but it is not the place where you are really gonna be creating as much. A lot of it is. I would say sustaining more so than creating again, opinion happy to to to be challenged on that.
Vyara (03:32):
And so I was talking to someone I had known for and admired for a long time. And I was kind of at this intersection, like a, like a lot of us in our career when we say, well, what's really important to me. And it was pandemic time. So even more so. And I realized I was really drawn by impact, like the ability to create something meaningful. I never wanted to work for anyone that I didn't respect and admire. I think that that is invaluable high quality people working with high quality people is not a luxury. And then the last thing I think is culture. Both companies that I, the last two companies that I worked at culture was a significant driver of value. And it's not something you realize until you start to to go out into the market and you meet some people, you meet some companies you're like, Ooh, okay.
Vyara (04:19):
Culture here is not so much of a an asset. It's not something you nurture. So for me, those were the three things that were essential and Greg Eisenberg, who's the CEO and co-founder of Late Checkout was someone I, I admired since, since his early twenties. So he's a serial entrepreneur extremely high quality in terms of his integrity and just somebody who is a really interesting thinker about consumer crypto and community. And so he was he had just sold his last company and he was setting something up with his co-founder Theo and was maybe six months in. And they were like, why don't you join us? And I was intrigued because at the time it, it literally, I would've been a team of one, and I don't think in my career I've ever been a team of one.
Vyara (05:17):
And once you've been in large corporations the term leverage, meaning the ability to, to delegate to others is something you take for granted. So this idea of having to do on my own was very daunting, but exciting. So I, I asked him if I could think about it. So I went on my merry way interviewing across across the board either in CPG or in tech, et cetera. And in the, I chose to stay at Late Checkout. I chose to join them because the opportunity to work with, with Greg was just too good to pass up. And and in a nutshell, what Late Checkout is, is a Web3 community holding company. What that means is that we're thesis driven, everything starts and ends with community. So that's the lens through which we view the world. And the way that we deliver against that promise of being community first is through a product agency where we work with startups, a not for profits and even large fortune 500 companies to help them become community first. So through a slew of services, a fund where we ideate incubate and the objective is to scale up and scale out community first product, and finally a fund where we invest in or acquire community based companies. So that's, that's me and that's Late Checkout.
Kathleen (06:39):
That's so interesting. I love the story. I mean, what a transition from working in large corporations to coming in as the only person on the team. I, I, it resonates deeply with me because I am a serial startup marketer, and I have this love, hate relationship with it, where I'm like, I love being in small teams. I love coming in really early, where I'm not having to dismantle what somebody else has built. You know, I can really, I'm very much an entrepreneur at heart. And I love the idea of coming in and looking at marketing as like a business within a business, and I'm gonna be building my business. But it is hard work and you are doing the work every day while you are also ideating and strategizing. And that's not for everyone certainly, but I, I very much connected with your description there. The, what Late Checkout is doing is really interesting. And I wanna start with, you know, you mentioned the term community and community is such a big part of, of all of this, this big topic of, of Web3 and the things around it. So I wanna start to, to define some terms before we get into the discussion, because I've learned that there's a lot of confusion around what these things mean, and so we don't have to get a dictionary. But your version of how would you define what Web3 is?
Vyara (08:03):
So Web3, I'm gonna use somebody else's definition which I felt, which I feel is the, the one that helped me wrap my head around it. And I think it, it's presumptuous to say that I've wrapped my head around something that's so dynamic. So bear in mind, these things evolve and change, and you have to be willing to be wrong and to evolve your thinking with it. But essentially and I can share the, the, the references with, with you post post interview, essentially, there are three large phases of the web. So we talk about web one being mostly read. If you think about it, it's basically taking things that existed in real life. I, for example, newspapers and creating these portals. So it's really this interface more so than anything else. So that's really read Web2 is read and write.
Vyara (08:58):
So this idea of having a dialogue or just think of the chat capabilities inside of some of the websites, think of early forums, et cetera. So this idea of read and write the third era of the internet is the ownership component. So if you about the internet as a digital economy, for lack of a better expression although you are contributing, you don't reap ownership. So the idea with Web3 is that read just like in web one, write just like in Web2 and one, which is particular or specific to Web3, it's this idea of unlocking economic value for your participation within the internet economy. So that's Web3 to me.
Kathleen (09:41):
Okay. That makes sense. And I like that the way you broke that down, I think there's also a lot of like misunderstanding around. And what is the difference between Web3 and blockchain and NFTs, crypto? Like these four terms, a lot of times are used interchangeably, but they're not interchangeable. And so if I'm understanding you correctly, Web3, is this concept of how the internet is going to evolve?
Vyara (10:10):
Correct.
Kathleen (10:10):
Whereas the blockchain is a very concrete thing.
Vyara (10:13):
Yes.
Kathleen (10:13):
And NFTs are a concrete sort of asset. And crypto is a form of payment. So these are all very different things.
Vyara (10:23):
Yes. But if you think about it, and I think part of the confusion comes from the fact that the word crypto's been almost like gobbled up by Web3, and we don't see as many crypto specific language as we used to. It used to very much be crypto. And now you see that the line has kind of blurred and a lot of it has become this Web3. So I think that the way to think about it is there's a different technical elements to Web3 like the blockchain, which is the foundational technical layer. And then there's applications like NFTs. So it's really just different layers let's say of, of a whole new ecosystem.
Kathleen (11:09):
Yeah. Now Web3 is this big basket of how the internet can be used in the future. Moving forward you are very focused on community as a company, as a person. Can you talk about really what this notion of Web3 means and the implications that it has for how our concept of community is going to evolve?
Vyara (11:38):
A hundred percent. So what's interesting is that we talked about read, write and own. So similarly communities have always existed. Just think about your citizen network. Just think about your neighborhood, just think about your, all of the different groups that you're a part of that have a shared purpose, your religious groups, different affiliations, social groups. So community as a human unit or a atomic unit is, is not new. What's interesting is if you put that within the context of read, write and own, what ends up happening is that the difference between Web2 and Web3 communities is that there is shared economic value or shared upside for the community. That is, that is not as present in Web2or web one. The additional thing is that it is now a community from an organizational standpoint, meaning that there is shared treasury and there is shared governance, meaning the community votes on what is most important to it as a group. So it's your regular community, but there is the additional layer of treasury and governance that is on top of the same community that you love and know.
Kathleen (13:07):
Okay, I wanna dig into that more because I think I understand that at a conceptual level. But now I need to understand it at a practical level. So treasury, this implies some form of value, some form of payment, some form of currency. Where does that even come into play in community? Because I, you know, the audience here is marketers, and I think we're used to the notion of community, but many of us are not used to thinking of community as something that has this, this currency or value or form of payment associated with it.
Vyara (13:46):
Sure. But even if we think about, let's think about, co-ops very similar, this idea of managing an asset is built into co-ops as in terms of community. So it's not really new. There are some, there are some evolutions that are enabled by technology, but this idea of managing a shared asset is not so new in terms of, in terms of how people have organized around communities. But yes, you're right. So let's, let's take, for example, a community that has a that is creating a purpose to, and I'll think of a, of a, of an example to buy an NBA franchise team. So these NBA enthusiasts love the game, but they're seeing some things that they think that as fans they can help with. So they believe that there is a, a better way for the players, the fans, and the franchise owner to share wealth. So let's say, I decide, and this is actually a DAO that exists. So Web3 community that exists,
Kathleen (14:56):
So I'm sorry. DAO stands for?
Vyara (14:59):
The acronym stands for a decentralized autonomous organization, but it is a Web3 community. So it's okay. It's, it's very much the legal name of what we were just talking about.
Kathleen (15:13):
Got it.
Vyara (15:14):
And so this group is called Krause House and their intention is to buy an NBA team. So they have this shared purpose of correcting maybe a wrong that they believe exists in terms of, in terms of value creation and value capture within the NBA. They think that the fans with the athletes and the franchise all around the table could do a better job of it. So let's say, they say, well, we are going to start this community. Hey, NBA fans, we are going to launch a token, or we are going to launch an NFT to create treasury or create to, to basically crowdsource the, the, the money to be able to move forward with this purpose. So we come together, we say, this is what we wanna do. We launch a token or an NFT, which creates an, a supply of these, of these funds. We sell these funds, or we we open, we open the sale to these funds and by buying into it, you either have a token or an NFT that holds value, and this creates your treasury. So it's really like a, it's like a mini economy where-
Kathleen (16:31):
It's like stock kind of.
Vyara (16:32):
Exactly.
Kathleen (16:34):
Yeah.
Vyara (16:35):
And, and then this token, or this NFT provides you access to governance. So as we come together and we start to vote on certain resolutions around how we're going to be using the money, things like, Hey, we wanna hire someone full time. We're gonna pay them XYZ dollars community vote, you vote that gets captured. And then the vote moves forward into into, into, into ledger basically. So it's now captured. This has been decided upon the community has voted. So you see that these people who've come together for shared of owning an NBA team have created a shared purpose with their community. They've invited them to help them build the treasury. This treasury is now made up of all of these contributors and these contributors in exchange hold these tokens, which allow them to vote on resolutions. And the steps that this community is going to take as it, as it kind of as its lifecycle evolves.
Kathleen (17:39):
Okay. I like this example and I, and I will admit I'm not a big sports person, but what this makes me think of is honestly, the, the offline version of this would be like the Green Bay Packers, where they are, there's literally, you can get stock in the Green Bay Packers. And, but this is a much more sort of digitally forward version of that. And it, and also the Green Bay Packers, I feel like if you have stock, you don't actually get to participate in decision making. So this is a little bit more democratic.
Vyara (18:06):
You're right. I think the difference between the stock is, is theirs, like the, you own part of the economic value, but you don't share in the governance.
Kathleen (18:13):
Right. Right. So, okay. I get this now. That was a very good explanation. But the big question, I think most people are probably thinking right now is what, what does this have to do with marketing, right? Like why would marketers care? What should they know about it? Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Vyara (18:29):
For sure. I think one of the things, one of the chips on our shoulders as marketers is being a cost center. So if you think about everything that I've talked about in terms of being able to monetize interest, you start to see that the marketing function could move from cost to profit center. We actually published something on this last week and I can share with you and your audience later, but this idea is really powerful. In that you now can link attention making mechanisms to actual economic value. So this community is not just people engaging. It's people contributing. So you see the appeal that your community has for investors, people participating in the governance. So you can see who is showing up to vote. And then finally you can actually monetize the value of, of the community from a dollar perspective, which has been extremely difficult up until now.
Vyara (19:33):
So what's interesting is that this Web3 aspect, the tokenized, the tokenized aspects of of these communities allows you to estimate economic value in a way that's not been able, we've not been able to do both for so for example, if a marketing team within an organization launches an NFT, let's think about the, the case of Adidas. So Adidas paired up with Bored Ape Yacht Club to co-create a campaign. And I wanna say that they sold out of a, all of their NFTs. And I want to say I'm gonna look this up before I say something silly, but I wanna say that it was in the tens of millions of dollars. So not only did you create a significant amount of ground swell and grass root interest for your, for your brand, you made it culturally relevant nowadays. It's very difficult to say, what does that mean to be cultural relevant?
Vyara (20:36):
Well, it translated into a sold out NFT collection and XYZ sales. I wanna say it was 20 million. I could be wrong, but 20 million in four minutes is not a bad day. So yeah, that's what I mean to say by, it could be extremely powerful to harness activities that so far have been very difficult to evaluate from a dollars and cents perspective, because they've been higher up in the funnel. The funnel is completely disrupted. It's really this idea of moving from an audience to a community, to a product, more so than, you know, your traditional kind of IDA attention funnel.
Kathleen (21:14):
So, okay. Backing up, you mentioned Bored Ape Yacht Club for those who might not be familiar, that is a, a collection of NFTs that, that sells for a lot of money. And it's, it's sort of like a, I guess the way I would describe it and correct me if I'm understanding this wrong is it's like that NFT grants access to a community and that community has events and different things. Like, you know, I think they had, they rented a big yacht at NFT week in New York, and you could only get on it if you had your Bored Ape Yacht Club.
Vyara (21:46):
It unlocks IRL events. But also what is unique about this project is that you, as the owner of a Bored Ape own the IP, which is wild. So if you think about the Bored Apes as being this collection of NFT of NFTs, which are non fungible tokens. So we talked about tokens, which are, let's say a dollar for dollar, meaning that they, they are the same value, non fungible just means that they're of different value. So you, it's kind of the difference between an image based NFT and a token, which is worth X, Y, Z, but is the same token across, right/
Kathleen (22:26):
Like a subway token where it's always worth, you know, a dollar versus you're buying a piece of art and that value could accrue over time.
Vyara (22:35):
That value could accrue. And it is not the same value as another, as another piece of art, right.
Kathleen (22:40):
Another,
Vyara (22:40):
So that's, that's the only difference between the two, but the, the mechanism is the same. So yeah, so, so Bored Ape Yacht Club is this collection of NFTs that are generative, meaning that they took all kinds of different traits. And they created a large selection of programmatically created artworks that are this Bored Ape. It's really, it's really quite cute. The, the usage is really collection. So you collect these Bored Apes as part of your digital gallery or as your PFP on Twitter. So basically your digital avatar. So there's an identity, there's an identity component to it. But what's interesting is that that collection grants you the IP. So if I own a Bored Ape X, Y, Z, I can just decide to create a comic book with it. And I would own the IP. I am completely autonomously empowered to create derivative products with my board Ape. This is, this is wild. So I'm basically autonomous. I, I own the IP I can do with it. What I want I can.
Kathleen (23:54):
Is that true of every NFT or just, is that unique to Bored Apes?
Vyara (23:58):
I don't know if it's unique to Bored Ape, I think nouns is another project that is actually CCO. So it's like a, it's like a completely IPless usage concept. But most of them don't grant you the IP. I would have to do some research, but that's pretty unique to Bored Ape at least from, from what I've seen.
Kathleen (24:23):
Yeah. I wasn't even aware of that. That's really interesting.
Vyara (24:26):
That's really crazy. So example G Money. So Adidas bought a Bored Ape and G Money who is a early collector of, of Bored Ape Yacht Club and other NFT collections. They did a collaboration, so a digital entity, a collector and a brand collaborated on the launch for a brand that had impact across digital and IRL sales. So it's a really new way to unlock value across all stakeholder groups, the fans, the, and, and the artists.
Kathleen (25:09):
Yeah. And I've seen different direct to consumer brands doing things like this, like Gucci, I know it was a really early adopter of NFTs and they had, they actually had like a NFT version of a Gucci purse that sold for more than the actual physical Gucci purse sold for which I think is so interesting. And they're building like spaces in the metaverse. I think they just bought like property. Virtual property. So there's all kinds of interesting things happening there where I think people struggle. At least this is me projecting is envisioning how this would be used in a B2B marketing context. And I'm wondering if you can speak to that at all.
Vyara (25:51):
I think where it could be interesting for, for B2B is the access to, to data. So if we think about the blockchain as really giving you much more access and much, much more incentive into data, think about it in think about it in the way of a peer group. So let's say for example, that I am complimentary to a set of products from a B2B standpoint. And what I'm looking to do is get information about the ability to do X, Y, Z. So if let's say I own my data and I am able to extract a amount, there is no reason why company A, B or C would be able to exchange this information with a non-competitive brand. So if you, if you think about how difficult it is in this day and age to truly own and understand your data simply because it is distributed broadly distributed, and you, you don't really own it in, in, at different touchpoints throughout the process, the ability to exchange about data, similarly to, let's say the, the days of very simple commerce where you own all of the information could be something that unlocks a if amount of value for, for companies that are, that are, that are in that, in that bus, the same business or in a, an ancillary or complimentary business.
Vyara (27:33):
Rather, that is one way I see, I see for, I see it being applied to B2B, but you're right. It's that, it's not, it won't be as simple for one, because I don't know if businesses will want to be on a public blockchain where there's so much transparency. So I wonder if on the B2B side, we're not gonna see the growth of, of private blockchains. And there are, there are different makers who are looking at that because there is that sensitivity around being completely transparent that some companies might simply not have, they might not have the comfort level to do that for reasons that are, are their own, and that are very likely quite valuable and quite significant and relevant. But yeah, I think, I think there, we're going to see, we're going to see companies potentially move to private chains.
Kathleen (28:46):
That's interesting. Now, going back to communities for a second you talked about community and treasury and governance. If somebody is thinking of starting a community and introducing an NFT as part of it, I think the first question most people have is why would somebody wanna buy that NFT in the first place? Like, you know, are the, is it just a matter of you create the NFT and there's a market for it, or, or what other work needs to go into creating a reason for people to wanna purchase that in the first place?
Vyara (29:25):
That's a profound question. Why do people buy? I think there's all kinds of reasons. So let's take the example of rewards. So if you think about rewards or you think about loyalty, it's not really different, it's this idea of redistributing value to your consumers? I believe that there are certain motions which gave rise to, to what we see today and loyalty and community based selling and direct selling, I think are the foundational building blocks of what we're seeing now from a community based selling point of view or community based token or tokenomics point of view. So loyalty is the same thing, this idea of thanking your best customers for the business that they give you is, is, is good for business and good for, for belonging. So we see all kinds of, we've seen all kinds of products pop up, which, which do that.
Vyara (30:36):
So, you know, that there is a market for it, this, this idea of creating rewards points, tokens, cashback offers, all of these things, which look to redistribute value. So why would you not do that directly with your consumers? So why wouldn't you invite them to participate in your upside? Is the question to ask yourself, and if you, you have customers, why that buy from you, would it be crazy to think that they would participate in something that allowed them to have upside it? I think it's a question that is worth asking yourself as, as you develop your, your marketing programs and test it. Increasingly the are tools that are being launched that are going to be that are going to allow people and marketers to, to do a lot of these things, not in a no code way, but, but increasingly independently or autonomously.
Vyara (31:37):
So I think that we're going to move towards a world where there's a lot of use case is for NFTs because it's really just a it's a, it's a blank canvas. It's an opportunity for you to design all kinds of things into it. And we're, we're seeing PFPs or the art, the artwork take the charge, but they're, they're potentially a, a lot of other use case that exist for that, like if you think about memberships, access cards, subscription models, there's all kinds of ways in which NFTs could become the commerce layer to, to something that, that looked very different before. It, it's kind of a, a natural evolution. If you think about, if you think about everything that we've that we've created around access and not ownership. So this idea of having continuous access and being incentivized both financially and from an access point of view for for, for participating is, is really kind of the next frontier.
Kathleen (32:46):
So thank you for that explanation. And, and I think when you talked about upside giving people a reason to, to, or to choose to, to purchase paid in an upside that you can offer them. And I've definitely seen that used in the let's call it the, the, the direct to consumer world, where, for example, if you are a customer of whether it's Nike or Adidas or whatever brand it is, you purchase the brands NFT, and that grants you access to like early new product offerings. So like the sneaker world is the perfect use case for this because people are so crazy about their sneakers and collecting. And, and it makes sense that like, oh, I can buy that NFT. And then when they release this new version of the sneaker that everybody's gonna want, I'm gonna be able to get it before the general public, right. That I understand from, but we, and you look at it through a community lens. Is it different than that? Or like, are there other, are there other upsides that pertain specifically to communities?
Vyara (33:51):
I think what's interesting with communities is, is the additional social layer. That is a, is a monetized benefit now. So this idea of belonging now has a, now can have a, a cost associated to it. So this idea of having similarly to any kind of club that you're a part of that's the, so that's, that's the part that can be monetized in, in these communities is, is this affiliation. And then the idea to be able to crowdsource investment for large endeavors is significant as well. So a few months back there was this DAO that sprung out of this, wanting to a version of the constitution. And it was,
Kathleen (34:43):
I saw that.
Vyara (34:44):
And think about all of these people coming together for the reasons of you know, for the people of the people, for the people. So this idea of buying one of the, I wanna say one of the six remaining versions of the constitution, which was being auctioned, and they felt what a wonderful thing for us as a group to be able to have one of the original versions of the constitution. And then we would decide collectively what we would do a it, the speed with which that message got out completely grassroots. And they were able to onboard significant amount of people onto web recently because they were moved by this purpose is the other thing that I think is interesting. So being able to move people out of a complacency because of something that they care deeply about and to create the change they wanna see, I think is the, is the, the, the community purpose aspect, the social aspect of, of progress that I find extremely interesting. So so I think that would be the, the part that I would add to that.
Kathleen (35:49):
So earlier you mentioned monetizing marketing and how marketing's traditionally looked at as a call center. And this notion that through Web3, through potentially NFT, you could create a, a revenue stream for marketing. You could make it into a profit center. And I have a question around that because I, I understand in principle, like as, as a marketer, you could, your organization could create NFTs. You sell them, you have your initial sale, and at that point, you, you can make money, you can monetize them, but is it, this is where, what I don't understand. And so I'm gonna ask the dumb questions so that anybody listening doesn't feel like they don't have to. So my question is beyond the initial sale, is it like where once you sell it, it's owned by that, that person, and then they can resell it and make money, or is there some residual income stream that you get every time that NFT is then traded in the future? Like, is it a one time revenue opportunity or is there anything ongoing?
Vyara (36:55):
So, yes, you're right. There is. And apparently part of the appeal of this model is that you would have perpetual rights to, to the, to the resale. So every single time that this property digital property changes hands, you would get a residual paid back to you. So think about how interesting that could be for real estate. So I often think of the use case of real estate, because let's say in the span of their lifetime, a person is going to be called to move four to five times. Think about how many times you could, you know, participate economic value created because your, your house sold and sold and sold again. So that is something that I find fascinating. I don't know what kind of be, I think it's gonna be interesting over the long term to see what kind of unintended behaviors that creates. But it's definitely interesting to think of perpetual rights on the property that you own.
Kathleen (38:06):
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting to me, especially because when you look at that, like subset of NFTs that are truly art, it's, it's great that if an artist initially, like I have a friend, who's an artist here and where I live and he created an NFT. It's, it's sold initially at 250 dollars. Well, if that NFT someday is worth a hundred thousand dollars, how wonderful that he can still participate in that additional value creation, you know, as it appreciates over time, I think that's great, but you're right. It, it, who knows what that's going to mean in terms of like, it's all, it's all economics, right. And, and economics has its own built incentive incentives that we haven't seen play out fully.
Vyara (38:44):
Exactly. So I think the, the behaviors that, that, that is going to create both positive and negative is gonna be interesting to watch. But it really, it really creates a lot of value at least in its in the way in which it was designed for, for, for people to, to participate much longer in the things that they have created.
Kathleen (39:05):
Yeah. All right. I wanna shift gears here because we've talked so much about like how to understand what's happening and, and use cases for it, but I wanna get a little bit more tactical and get into a case study slash you also have a little bit of a starter kit, I believe. And so I'd love to hear more about, you know, what should people know, who, who are hearing this and saying to themselves, I'm interested, what are my next steps, right? How do I, how do I learn more? How do I get more involved? How do I participate?
Vyara (39:42):
Great questions. I think we all got the bug in some way, shape or form. I wanna say that I also got the bug listening to somebody or reading something, and I just fell dow the rabbit hole of learning. So I've developed quite a few quite a few. I'm gonna say streams of information or information diets. But first I would tell you to, if you're not on Twitter, you're gonna need to get on Twitter because the conversation around crypto is happening on Twitter. You're going to have to spend a little bit of time getting comfortable with some of the verbiage, which is at first really overwhelming, but don't let it get to you. It's really just like every, like every other language that you've learned. You, you, you get the hang of it. I think understanding the technology as well, going back to the origin white papers that were created, one of the things that is wonderful with Web3 is that there's a significant trail of, of, of writings.
Vyara (40:45):
So understanding some of the underlying principles even of Bitcoin and then Ethereum, in terms of that layer one. So the first layers of the blockchain, I think is interesting to understand what do they mean by peer to peer and permissionless? And you're gonna see how some of the values are actually translated into code. So it's not just conceptual, it's, it's literally tactically executed through code. So that's another thing that I find very interesting that these concepts are then rendered and made real through code. So there's a real philosophy behind, behind some of these teachings and thinkings and, and, and, and ways in which that community has set itself up. So that I think is the, the foundational layer. And then I think it's important to look at different reading stacks. So I can put something together for your, for your readers, like a, a starter kit that has all kinds of different references, whether it's reading about Web3 who to follow or the DAOs that you can be a part of.
Vyara (41:52):
So, for example, at Late Checkout, we have a crypto college, which is a class that we created to help people better understand the foundations of, of Web3, but also practically speaking, be able to assess and understand what NFT projects are, what a tokenized community is. And what a DAO is. It's intended mostly for builders. So people who want to create those on their own, but it allows you to really get a foundational sense of what, of what is happening in that space. It moves quite quickly. There is different learning DAOs that allow you to follow along with a community. So think about them similarly to like a cohort based class, where you're surrounded by other people who are motivated to learn. I'm also gonna share that with you, for you to be able to share with your readers.
Vyara (42:41):
So think about it. Don't just read, but learn by doing with others that are gonna help you ask the right questions have the right forums for discussions. So whenever not sure of what's happening, you can always pop into some sort of forum and ask questions and discuss. And lastly, I think for marketers, it's important that they know that there's a wonderful community called Jump. Jump is a community of marketers in Web3 that is led by a marketer. So it's, think about it like a, a DAO for marketers. So we are, I wanna say at this point, a thousand people strong. There's people from all kinds of backgrounds, it's a global online community of marketers. And the idea there is to get smarter together to understand by doing. A lot of the governance mechanisms that I talked about before are instated for people to get comfortable with this idea of voting on chain and tokens and and some of the governance mechanisms that exist inside of a DAO. So you learn by doing and it's really fun because you learn with others who are just like you who have the same by background as you, and who care about the same things that you do. So really invite everyone to, to take a look at Jump.
Kathleen (44:02):
Yeah, I will definitely put the link to that in the show notes. I'm a member of Jump. I just joined recently and I'm excited to learn alongside a lot of the marketers in there. The other thing I wanted to add, and this is sort of a personal thing for me is just observation I've seen, which is that the vast majority of the people participating in, in Web3 in the blockchain, in crypto, in NFTs across the board. And I'm gonna get, maybe get a little controversial here, but I'm wading in. It's white men, and it's white men of a certain age. And I just, I, if you're listening and you find this intimidating, I just wanna encourage you to dig into it because as a woman, like, I feel very strongly that we need to broaden participation in all of this, because there's so much wealth being created in these channels.
Kathleen (44:58):
And, and if it's just another channel where, where a bunch of bros are getting rich, like that's not, it's not good for all of us. And so that's one of the reasons I was really excited to have these conversations is I, I wanna make this more, more accessible to people. I wanna make it more accessible to women, to people of color, to, you know, anybody really who feels that perhaps they're not seeing themselves in the community of people that are very active in Web3. So, you know, Jump is a great community for marketers. There's, you guys have your own discord. That's wonderful.
Vyara (45:33):
Yes. I think that that is a real concern. I think there's definitely a lot of work to be done still, but there is a layer of awareness. I would tell you in Web3 about its need to diversify, whether that's all for show, only time will tell, but I think that we have to, we have to give people the benefit of the doubt in that, in that this community is really trying to be the change. Does it flounder for sure? Does it always make it, of course it doesn't, but there are some really, really fantastic leaders in Web3 who are women or POC who are worth knowing and, and, and, and celebrating whether on the technical side, on the creator side or on the VC investor side, there are some powerhouse people who don't look like the majority who are making change and who are creating inroads for the rest of us. So I I'm, I'm pretty optimistic about Web3's ability to maybe not right all of the wrongs of, of, of the world, but, but definitely try to go in the right direction, create progress, and create wealth for a broader set of people than, than, than what we've seen today.
Kathleen (46:50):
Agreed, agreed. I think there's a lot of opportunity. We just need to be willing to educate ourselves and take the leap. And so that's what I'm hoping a little bit comes out of this series of conversations. So I so appreciate you coming on and sharing what you know, this is, it's been fascinating. And I think, you know, we're just at the early stages, there are so much more to learn and to experiment with. And, you know, just going back to one of the points we made earlier in the world of B2B marketing, I strongly believe that we're gonna see in the next year to two years, tremendous innovation in, in the use of Web3 and NFTs, et cetera, in B2B marketing. And, and so I feel like getting to understand it now is, is really all of our jobs. You know, whether you do anything with it or not is another story, but I think as a marketer, you have a responsibility to understand these things that are influencing the world around us.
Vyara (47:41):
You're right. And I wonder, I'd love to ask you a question. How do you see, how do you see B2B participating considering some of the privacy issues that you have at kind of the B2B level and, and competition? Is there anything that has made you go Hmm, that could, that could be interesting.
Kathleen (48:00):
Yes. So I think with communities specifically, like, I'm, I believe that in the B2B world communities should be a part of everyone's marketings strategy. And I think that, you know, NFTs specifically hold an interesting opportunity to build a community that has different levels of access. And to, you know, like one of the things I think that's been interesting that I've learned through Jump is just, you know, there are different ways of thinking about NFTs. There's just purely selling them for money. And then there's allowing people to earn them through their their level of involvement. And when you think about communities and, and communities, whether they're customers or broader audiences, communities don't function if there isn't strong involvement. And so if you're able to use some of these tools to incent people to get more deeply involved and invest in, in the community, I mean, the ultimate signal of a community's success is when you, as in this case for, for B2B marketing, when you, as a brand can step out of really actively managing the community, when it takes on a life of its own, you know, you've built something of value.
Kathleen (49:04):
And I feel like NFTs in particular can, can really be crucial in, in getting to that point.
Vyara (49:12):
A hundred percent. I think I love your idea of access and like these consumer groups and B2B, I think anybody who's had a really, really incredible customer kind of change the product roadmap, impact how we think about going to market. And we think about, you know, the, the value that these early adopters or that these very innovative customers play in creating value for the whole org, allowing them to participate in the upside. I think you're absolutely right. Would be amazing like these, you know, advocate or consumer groups or, or, or customer groups could be so incredible. And there's probably other things that we're not thinking about right now, but, but I think that is a, that's a really powerful thing to have people care deeply and be invested deeply in the products that they use. And we've seen it.
Vyara (50:03):
I mean, customers are becoming more and more advocates for a certain type of life. So giving them access to participating in the certain type of life that they wanna see, whether it's a life that has less of a carbon footprint, whether it's a life that is more data driven, whether it's a life that involves more people or decreases poverty, I think you're right. There's, there's a, there's an incentive part of it. Like the, the, the behaviors that this is going to shape around consumption, I think is also really gonna be interesting. Will people, you know, participate more deeply if you have a purposeful company, maybe that's some of the things that we'll start to see and B2B, as well as, you know, companies struggle to be meaningful outside of the realm of what they're selling. Is that gonna be a big differentiator?
Vyara (50:52):
You know, will B Corp start to become something that means more than just being B Corp, but starts to have a an economic impact in terms of being effective and going to market because you have more people that are parti participating in your community. I think it is going to be super interesting to look at because also of these challenges of, of privacy and competition how will they be at once transparent, but also protect themselves against against competitors simply because the blockchain is, is public. You know, it is pretend the first time in the history of mankind where consumer data would be, you know, publicly retrievable for a corporation that could be something that is too risky to do. So how are they going to adapt? I think is going to be very super interesting. And a lot of these constraints will create will, will just unleash so much creativity and be to be that I completely agree. There's a whole, there's a whole slew of things yet to be covered.
Kathleen (51:48):
Yeah. We're just at the very beginning. So strap in. It's gonna get interesting. Well, Vyara, this has been so much fun. I, I don't even have time to ask you my two normal questions cuz we talked for so long and, but it's great. And, and I think, you know, those two questions can wait for another time. We'll have you back to have a separate conversation. But I do wanna make sure we squeeze in. If I, I feel like people who have heard this are going to be fascinated and they're going to want to learn more. So if somebody wants to connect with you, ask a question, learn more about Late Checkout, what's the best way for them to do that?
Vyara (52:23):
Either on LinkedIn, first and last name, or on Twitter at Vyara. So feel free to connect with me directly. It'll be my pleasure. I'm going to put a little bundle together for the readers for, for you Kathleen and your reader, not your readers, your listeners. But if you wanna have an AMA like a follow up, if you see that there's a lot of people who, who have questions let's have an AMA or let's do a kind of a Q&A where we answer some of the questions that have come in and we, and we're able to, to give people what they're looking for.
Kathleen (52:57):
I love it. All right. Well, I will put links to all of that in the show notes. So head there to Kathleen-booth.com and you'll find all the links to the resources that Vyara is mentioning. And if you're listening and you enjoy this episode, please head to Apple Podcasts and leave it a review. That's it for this week. Thank you so much for joining me Vyara. This was great.
Vyara (53:16):
This was great. Thank you for having me.
