Jeff Risley | Saxum
What does inbound marketing have to do with large public sector projects?
While it’s not the typical use case we think of when someone says the phrase “inbound marketing”, the same concepts that were developed to attract, convert and close B2B customers can be used to communicate with stakeholders and secure buy-in for complex public projects.
Jeff Risley and the team at Saxum call this “social permitting” and it involves four steps:
Awareness
Appeal
Activation
Advocacy
In this episode, Jeff describes what social permitting is, how it’s used, and the specific steps that Saxum goes through to help its clients with it as they work to build support for public sector projects.
Get the details on all of this, and more, in this week’s episode.
Resources from this episode:
Connect with Jeff on LinkedIn
Check out the Saxum Website
Learn more about social permitting
Jeff and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:14):
Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm Kathleen Booth, your host. And this week, my guest is Jeff Risley who is the chief growth officer at Saxum. Welcome to the podcast, Jeff.
Jeff (00:27):
Thanks, Kathleen. Really happy to be here.
Kathleen (00:30):
Yeah, we have a fascinating topic on deck today. So if you're listening, stay tuned. Um, but before we jump in, Jeff, can you share a little bit about who you are and what Saxum is?
Jeff (00:44):
You bet? So, um, I am a marketer at heart and I've been doing this for about 30 years now. And luckily, Kathleen I've been able to do it with, um, brands on the brands side or, um, agencies where I'm consulting with brands, nonprofits. Um, so really I've been able to do a lot of different marketing and a lot of different industries. And that has been one of the, the most fun things in my career. Uh, got that chance just because I've moved around the country and met different people and found different opportunities. And the opportunity I found at Saxum was basically the chance to be, um, you know, a leader at a mid-sized agency that was really doing some exciting things, all around purpose and profit, right? We're big in that at, Saxum basically balancing those two things, not only for ourselves, but for our clients. And in fact, we even wrote a book called obsessed for good a marketer's guide to changing the world.
Kathleen (01:52):
Just love that.
Jeff (01:53):
Yeah, because we feel like as marketers, we've got a big responsibility today to, to be obsessed for good to think about and help our clients think about not only how we can help you make a profit and keep your business going, but how you can be purposeful and do what we say, make meaningful and measurable change in the world, whatever that change is. So that's why I've loved being at Saxon. We, uh, take that to heart. We practice it with our clients. And as a mid-sized integrated agency, we have lots of different clients that are very purpose driven. So it works really well for us.
Kathleen (02:28):
I mean, I think that like what amazing thing to be doing at this particular time in our world, because there is so much movement in the direction of brands recognizing that they need to stand for something more than having a great product. And, and I, there's also a lot of research to back up that consumers want to give their money to brands that align with them from a value standpoint. And, and so I think, you know, there, there's definitely a need for, for someone or some organization out there to help companies, brands, organizations understand how to navigate that because this is for many, a very new world. So love that. That is what you guys are focused on.
Jeff (03:09):
Thank you. Yeah. It's and we're not the only ones and we're clearly not the inventors of this, but it's been in our DNA for a long time and we've just been real purposeful about, um, making it forward in our brand and in our positioning and using it to help us think about the types of clients we wanna serve going forward.
Kathleen (03:27):
Yeah. Now when you and I first spoke, you talked about a concept that I just find fascinating, which is something you call social permitting. So can you explain what you mean by that?
Jeff (03:39):
You bet. So social permitting is one of about five different solutions we offer at Saxon and social permitting in, in a nutshell is basically doing stakeholder engagement to make sure that your project, your, you know, infrastructure project, your park, your large development gets built and that it doesn't get stopped because you didn't do a good enough job getting a permit from, from the, uh, from the community. So this works really well with very expensive, very large, very complex development, no matter what they are, we use it. Uh, we do social permitting for wind farms and solar farms, renewable energy development. Uh, we did it for the largest public or privately funded park in the United States, in Tulsa, the gathering place. Um, we're gonna do it for another park in Arkansas. So it really is about being intentional, engaging community members so that they are not opposing your project. And in fact might be supporting it and, and helping you get this very, uh, complex thing built.
Kathleen (04:54):
So, okay, this is so dear to my heart. And I don't remember if we talked about this last time we met and I'm sure most people who listen to this podcast do not know this, but this is actually how I got started in my career. So before I went into marketing, before I started a marketing agency, I spent 10 years working in international development consulting. And when I first started out, I was working with organizations like the world bank on how you bring the private sector in to manage specifically water and wastewater services in the developing world. And I big big public sector reform projects. And the project that really kind of changed the course of my career was actually in the country of Ghana, where we were working on doing a public private partnership for water and wastewater in the entire country. It was a huge project desperately needed because a lot of people there don't, it's not even that they don't have access to good water it's that they don't have access to water for many hours of the, the day or sometimes many days of the week.
(05:58):
And so it was vital to get this project across the finish line. And, and, you know, the reason you bring the private sector in is like the government in these countries is what has been managing it and has failed for a variety of reasons. So I was working on this project. It was massive. We had like volumes of, of, you know, reports that we had created on how they should move forward. And then the project came to a grinding halt because a non-governmental organization out of the UK, not even from the country, came in and started like talking about how, oh, you're giving, you know, control of your water over to foreigners and to the private sector. And, you know, it's bad and you're, you're being taken advantage of. And the whole thing fell apart. And it was interesting cuz I had the opportunity to see some of the Ghanaians that I worked with many years later and they told me it took 10 years.
Jeff (06:51):
Oh my gosh,
Kathleen (06:51):
For this project to finally happen. And, and it was a travesty because when you think about it in the ensuing 10 years, people still didn't have access to water. And so I actually pivoted my career in international development and shifted my focus from procurement, which is what I had been working on to what I called at the time sort of strategic communications or stakeholder consensus building, because it was all about like, how do we prevent this from ever happening again? And how do we teach governments? How to start communicating more effectively at the early stages of these projects to build support so that the project can move forward. And these solutions which are so important can be put in place. And so I spent five years of my life working on that. <laugh>,
Jeff (07:36):
You know, I, we have to, might have to talk after this. You, uh, you might need to, if we need some consultants to,
Kathleen (07:41):
Oh my gosh, I'm so
Jeff (07:42):
Projects, man, you can jump in.
Kathleen (07:43):
Huh? I'm so far out of it. Like it's been too long, but um, but no, I was really passionate about it. And I saw that the real cost that, that having poor communication and consensus building could, could result in, on people and their lives and so super passionate about it. That that was a complete, uh, detour from our discussion.
Jeff (08:04):
No, not at all.
Kathleen (08:05):
Like a, a, a background on why I care about this and, and why I think it's so important. But I think that this is like, if you're listening and you're thinking this doesn't apply to me, take a pause because this actually applies to you, whether you're working on a big reform, public sector infrastructure or reform project, or if you're undergoing any kind of change management project, because it's at the heart of it. This conversation is about proactively like identifying who the key stakeholders are for any process of change and building support ahead of time so that you can move faster. Like my husband's famous for saying sometimes you've gotta slow down to speed up. And I feel like that's what that phrase describes this so much. It's like the work you do on the front end from a communication and consensus building standpoint can absolutely catalyze everything that comes on the back end. Yeah. So
Jeff (09:00):
You were spot on and it's great to, to meet somebody who gets this work. It's, it's definitely taken on a bigger role, you know, in the last 10 years, I think, um, at least in the sectors we work, we do a lot of work in energy and in energy, you know, it used to be that this wasn't a big thing. You know, whether it was a pipeline or a solar farm, but right now, you know, energy is in a transition. There's lots of opposition to any kind of development. You know, you got NBIS everywhere and rightfully. So people are going to have an opinion about your project. The difference is the internet. We now have social media, we have all these other things that allow small groups, we call it new activism to, to explode and companies and brands will get way behind and not get in front of this.
(09:52):
And all of a sudden they're dealing with, you know, a generally a, a minority group whose voice needs to be heard. It's really the middle. That is the quietest you're gonna hear from supporters and you're gonna hear from detractors, but those in the middle are the ones who are really trying to activate to get them to understand what's going on and minimize any damage or delay that could be caused by the activism that's out there. And most of it's misinformation, a lot of times their whole goal is just to delay, like you mentioned with your project and got it. I mean, it's not about facts generally. So we're having to do a lot of education to the public, through this process and engage with them online. We call it digital activism and doing it in person. A lot of, you know, everything from open houses to stakeholder, you know, meetings, uh, landowner meetings, but you've gotta be real human and involved. Um, and you cannot skip this step.
Kathleen (10:51):
Yeah. So, all right, this is a big topic and, and I wanna make it digestible. So let's start with the 30,000 foot view. When you think about the social permitting process, I'm assuming that you guys have developed your own methodology or your own process as to how you tackle this. So 30,000 foot view, what does that look like?
Jeff (11:16):
Uh, it starts with, um, engaging the client directly So when we get a call, it could be, Hey, I've got a project that is developing in a green space right now, and it's gonna be in construction in a year or two. That's the perfect time to be calling us versus, um, I'm on fi my hair's on fire because we've got a public meeting next week. And I just got word that there's gonna be 50, you know, detractors showing up in t-shirts with buttons at the county commission meeting. So it starts with what state are you in with your project when we get that call? And then once we know that if it's early stage, we basically go through four phases of work with them. We start by awareness. So who and who, and what do we need to engage locally from elected officials to the general public and understand that and put together the story about your project.
(12:09):
And then it goes to appeal. So how are we going to basically, it's a plan, it's a communications plan about how we're going to appeal to these different audiences we've identified so that we can tell them your side of the story. Then it's all about activation. Okay, we've got to get that story out. And we do it through paid, earned and owned tactics, very integrated. And then ultimately looking, we're looking for advocacy. We want those folks that are either supporters or on the fence that can be turned to supporters to engage in their local communities or in their area. So that they'll start speaking locally about this. The company is never as trusted as a local voice. Um, so if we can get the local community involved, we're definitely gonna have more success in getting the project finished.
Kathleen (12:57):
Yeah. Now, I mean, I hear this and to me, there's a clear parallel with what I would call traditional B2B marketing in the sense that you're identifying your audience, your, um, sort of identifying the value you're, then you're determining the best channels. And it's all about like, you know, calls to action. What is that call the action that you want them to take in your case it's advocacy. Um, so let's start with kind of identifying the, the players and I'd love to hear, you know, what that looks like and, and what tactics you use to, to determine who the key audiences are.
Jeff (13:38):
You bet, uh, it all starts with us with a landscape analysis. So we go in, and basically in 30 days we can do desktop research and identify in the project area, um, all kinds of factors, right? So has there been opposition to projects of any sort of development in the past, you know, who are all the elected officials? And we go deep on those elected officials from a background perspective, what do they believe about this project? What are they stated publicly about this project already? Where are they on this project from a support perspective? You know, we look at what's going on in the community from, you know, an economic development standpoint and just a general state of the economy. And then we do a very deep dive on all the social media and all the traditional media that's been published in the last year or so, so that we can see what's been happening there. That landscape analysis is basically the research that gives us the chance to plan. Then we can put our whole stakeholder permitting or, or, uh, social permitting plan in place for how we're going to do outreach in this particular project. Um, that's really the first two steps.
Kathleen (14:50):
Okay. And the thing that I'm so interested in is, is, and this is where it does seem to be, and maybe I'm wrong, but a little different than what I would say is traditional marketing in the sense that, like, it seems like there could be the potential for so much more emotion to be involved in these kinds of campaigns. And I'd love to hear from you, is that usually the case and how do you, how do you handle that?
Jeff (15:17):
Yeah, great question. The answer is yes, always. So it's not like, um, you know, B2B or B2C marketing where we're getting you to buy a lottery ticket, um, or getting you to buy our particular service. We're, we're trying to get somebody to make, um, an emotional decision and then take action on that decision that could put them at a, uh, let's just call it a reputational risk in this project, right? Lots of times these projects will divide communities. And so the emotion runs incredibly high and the way we deal with it is we find the people locally and work with them that are leaders in the community, right. We will even get them to be involved from a planning standpoint with us. And those ambassadors we call them will be very helpful in identifying other key people in the community that we can work with.
(16:11):
And the whole point is to try to take as much emotion out of it as possible and make it very fact based. But there are times I will be completely, you know, a transparent Kathleen. In some cases we've had to in open houses, we've had security present, we'll have to stage where demonstrations could take place. Potentially we will plan for all of that because in today's world, that very much can happen. Um, the whole point though, is to just give a voice to everybody who should have that voice it's okay. You don't wanna prevent it. You don't wanna fly under the radar. That's the worst thing you can say. Uh, what I hear from a client, we just wanna be quiet about this, you know, wanna fly under the radar, not gonna happen. Yeah.
Kathleen (16:56):
Yeah. Then you give somebody else the opportunity to be first out of the gate with messaging and then they own it. They own the conversation when that's the case. Um, so that's super interesting. And then the other thing that it seems a little different than, than the kind of marketing I'm used to is I'm used to marketing in situations where we have competitors, um, and competitors might have, you know, might say things about the brand or the product that I'm marketing for. Generally. It's not, it's not factually incorrect. Obviously it might have a slant to it, but you're in a situation where it's not competitors. It's what I would call detractors and they could be coming out with factually incorrect information. So how do you handle that?
Jeff (17:38):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Uh, the competition is everybody with an opinion. Um, and there's always lots of opinions, but not a lot of informed opinions. So what we're trying to do, we, we basically set up systems platforms as well as our own outbound, you know, communications tools for the particular project and client, so that we can at least match one for one, every single uninformed opinion that is published wherever it may be. So you have to think about it in terms of nipping, every one of those, um, those opinions in the bud. And that takes a lot of monitoring. We're basically monitoring constantly the conversations going on about a project. And then, because we've, we've worked with a lot of similar project, I'll start with a wind farm. For example, we know what the issues are gonna be, right. We know how many different, um, different kinds of issues from a, uh, a detractors standpoint will come up.
(18:39):
We know how to address those issues with science, um, reports, you know, other kinds of things. So we have that all at the ready to be able, uh, to then put that out into the marketplace for people to consume. Um, it doesn't mean that it changes minds, but again, I'm not necessarily trying to change a detractors mind. I'm trying to inform everybody, that's watching the debate happen, that's in the middle. And if you can do that effectively, you're going to get some people that will start supporting you or more likely they're going to have conversations in their community with those detractors or with people who are making decisions about the project so that they have cover to vote for it, to allow a certain permit, to, to, you know, maybe pull back on something else. That's what we're really seeking.
Kathleen (19:30):
So the thing that I'm really curious about is when I think through, even in my little neighborhood that I live in, there's so much controversy over seemingly things that should not be controversial and people get fired up. Right. And I'm the thing I'm fascinated by is, um, how you decide what to respond to. Because I feel like in some situations, the simple act of responding gives more oxygen to something. And so are there things that you just don't even respond to or do you respond to everything? Like how do you have a, a rubric for making that decision?
Jeff (20:11):
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, and the answer is no, we don't respond to everything. Um, and we generally aren't responding directly to commenters, um, unless it's on our own social pages, right? So as kind of standard operating procedure, um, during what I would call that appeal phase, when we're getting things ready, we will launch a project website. So that becomes the hub for all things related to that project. It is the, um, source of truth about what's really happening. And then we'll surround it with social hubs or excuse me, um, spokes. Right? So think Facebook, Twitter, um, will, will use earned media significantly. And unless somebody is, you know, commenting directly on our page, we won't respond to it. There's usually a Facebook group in opposition. There's lots of Twitter traffic in opposition, and we're not gonna necessarily jump in there and try to stir anything up. So that's generally what we do, but, and then specifically we do have a response matrix. It's usually a rapid response matrix. If this happens, do this, if this is said, do this, because again, we can predict what's gonna happen based on the project and the issues that'll come up. And then we know you don't have to be in the moment scattering and going, should we say something about this? Did we get legal review of that? You know, all that
Kathleen (21:36):
Kind of, so is it like talking points or is it something more structured than that?
Jeff (21:40):
Um, it can't in certain circumstances, it's very structured. So we know for example, that, um, in a wind farm project, there's going to be people who talk about an issue called shadow flicker, right? So the wind turbines are turban are turning. If the sun's shining, it will create a shadow as that thing is moving well, there's all kinds of evidence that does demonstrates that shadow flicker is not a bad thing. It's not gonna hurt anybody. So we can be very specific.
Kathleen (22:09):
That's super interesting. Are people worried about like, like that they're gonna have a seizure <laugh>
Jeff (22:14):
Everything. Yes.
Kathleen (22:16):
That's so interesting.
Jeff (22:17):
There's you know,
Kathleen (22:18):
I was, I didn't think you were gonna say that. I thought you were gonna say the people that worry about the birds,
Jeff (22:22):
Birds is a big part of it too. Yeah. There's you know that, you know what, the number one killer of birds is
Kathleen (22:28):
Airplanes?
Jeff (22:30):
Cats, cats. So we know these things and we can have some ready responses that are built, but then there's always those others that are either very localized issues or, um, it might be determined on the type of project. And in those we're gonna take our time maybe, and by time, we're very fast here, you know, 24 hours to come up with a response that's gonna yeah. Gonna make a, make a difference.
Kathleen (22:53):
That's so interesting. Um, okay. So the other question I have is you're being brought in by, in this case, prob the project sponsor let's call them, how do you handle, like who does the communicating? Because I would imagine that there are some perception nuances involved in like having a team of outsiders come in to help build support. Right. And so how much of this needs to be owned by the actual project sponsor versus can be owned and, or executed by your team?
Jeff (23:26):
Oh, great question. The answer is we always put the project sponsor client, uh, forward first. So Saxum employees will in a, let's say in a live situation in a real life situation, at an open house, we're absolutely there wearing their branded gear. You know, know we're gonna talk on behalf of the client. We'll identify ourselves as Saxum employees, but we're here working with them on all of the online communication though, you know, we're, we're able to easily publish it on their sites, on their platforms yeah. For them. Right. So generally they don't have the bandwidth to do this. They're worried about getting the project built. They're worried about the engineering and the construction and all of that. So we're trying to help supplement their communications team and we'll, you know, we'll absolutely do that for them, but we don't ever misrepresent who we are either.
Kathleen (24:20):
So hearkening back to my days when I used to do this, I can remember particularly one time when I had to sit on a panel as part of an event, it was a stakeholder event in the country, Nepal, uh, where we were talking about bringing the private sector. And again for water and Nepal is, is of socialist country. So there, so the idea like literally I was told, don't say the word profit, it's a bad word here. And, and it was funny cuz like we had to talk about the profit, the private sector was gonna make. And I was like, well we can't just not say the word <laugh> like, but I remember it was very intimidating. The first time I did this going up there and like making myself the face of this. And, and so I'm curious, like when you deal with these project sponsors, I imagine that the folks that you're dealing with feel that same way, they're intimidated by going in front of groups of people. So how, like how do you guide them in terms of like, what's the advice you give them about how to navigate these conversations, particularly when it's tough questions or angry questioners, like how do you, what's your training look like for that?
Jeff (25:27):
You know, that's, that's a great question. I know that in certain cases, Kathleen, especially in the energy industry, the product or the project developers are actually very well trained in this they're, they're constantly in front of county commissioners and, and hostile audiences. So we don't have to train them too much, but what we will do is give them another perspective. So we can, it can be as simple as here's what we recommend from a talking point standpoint, as you give that presentation or as you're in that meeting to actual role play, we can go ahead and put it together and do a scenario where we've got angry people there, if you wanna practice that. Right. So we can do all of that. It's generally in what I would call our placemaking placemaking is a, is basically, um, communities that are developing projects that are gonna help that community, uh, from a place standpoint.
(26:20):
So think economic development projects, parks, um, some, some industrial, small industrial, those folks generally don't have the same experience as somebody who's developing projects over and over and over. Yeah, right there it's a local downtown, um, community association. It could be the economic development or chamber. And so they're not used to that. So we'll do do a lot more training with them. It's very similar to media training that we would do, right. Understanding how to deal with the media is very similar to understanding how to deal with the public. Um, there's actually even certifications that are available in public participation. It's the international association of public participation and you can go through training, get certified on how to do public participation, stakeholder engagement. We actually have people that have gone through that and have that certification.
Kathleen (27:12):
That's interesting. And so what, what do you in your experience, what are the biggest mistakes that people make when they try to run those types of meetings? Mm-hmm
Jeff (27:21):
<affirmative> um, the first mistake is to assume you have any, any type of control over what's gonna happen, the best you can do is prep, right? You're you're not gonna control the situation. So you basically have to prep as much as you possibly can. That means even talking to the people that are going to be running that meeting beforehand, right? Understanding the situation. What's the room gonna look like for crying out loud, how many people are gonna be let in? Is there going to be a public comment period? And if so, how much time and what can they talk about? So we try to prep as much as possible. Um, the other mistakes I would see is, you know, people trying to be, um, almost unemotional, the right. So you, as the project developer have a stake in this too. You've got a good story to tell you don't have to, don't be angry or, or overly animated, but you wanna show some passion for how this is going to help that community. And almost every project we deal with is helpful to the community in some way, shape or form. So pointing those things out and making them crystal clear. Um, if you don't do that, that's a mistake. We see.
Kathleen (28:34):
That's interesting. Cuz I was gonna say, it sounds like you need to learn the skill of like eliminating emotion from, you know, your responses. But, but it's interesting to know that like it's not elimination, it's just, it's it's more about learning how to meter it appropriately. Yeah.
Jeff (28:49):
Passion and compassion. Right? You wanna understand and empathize with the people on the other side, but at the same time you want to note that, look, this is gonna bring in X billion in taxes for you guys over the next 20 years, the lifetime of this project we created, we built all new roads for you in the county because we knew we were damaging them. When we were bringing these large infrastructure projects to them, you know, we're gonna, this is gonna decrease. You know, um, this is gonna potentially improve property values. I mean, if you've got a nice park across from your, your home, you know, that's something that could help. So pointing out the benefits, whether they're their soft benefits or hard benefits are really important.
Kathleen (29:33):
So any good stories of projects where there was like massive opposition where you were able to like help a project sponsor, navigated and come out successfully?
Jeff (29:43):
Oh boy, lots, lots of um, stories I can think of maybe two instances. Um, all one, one was a, a wind farm development that was highly, highly contentious. We did all kinds of local, um, community outreach. We even put full page ads in the paper with local business people as the heroes in that ad. So we utilized a photo shoot of all the local people to then talk about the benefits. This was bringing to the community. So it wasn't us as the project sponsor. And I remember that that project actually ended up being in litigation. It was still went through litigation, the developer one and it was constructed. But sometimes even if you do all the right things, it's still gonna be, um, contentious. What we say is, look, if you didn't have the insurance of social permitting, it would've been way worse. So at least we got them to a certain spot. I will say on the other side, we've been able to turn people around. A lot of times I know at one open house, um, where there was a lot of contention. Um, what we loved was somebody afterwards said, um, those folks killed us with kindness. I mean, basically we were so kind to them accommodating and listening to their concerns that they felt heard. And when they felt heard that mattered, it made a difference. Um, so we're searching for that. Usually
Kathleen (31:22):
I love that. I mean, again, going back, you know, put your marketing cap on and you hear listen to the customer and like make them feel the love. And um, you know, I think there's so many fascinating parallels, uh, but we're gonna shift gears. Um, now and I got two questions. I always ask people that I'm, I'm curious to hear what you have to say about the first is, um, marketers that I talk to say that it's a struggle to keep pace with all the things that are changing in the world of digital and you guys engage in a lot of digital channels. So how do you personally keep yourself educated up to date?
Jeff (32:00):
Oh, I, I read a ton of, um, feeds blog feeds, Twitter feeds, Instagram feeds. Um, I use a feed reader called Feedly and basically every day I, I subscribe to all these feeds and I can get latest information, you know? Um, in fact, uh, if I looked at a couple of my feeds here, I might be able to tell you, but I'm looking at those marketing research like Gartner, but also doing a lot of just great blogs out there that we have. Um, you can subscribe to, um, I follow a lot of marketing technology, so Digi ay, um, things like that. Sorry, I'm trying to pull up Feedly just so I can look.
Kathleen (32:46):
Yeah, I love it. I love hearing the specific ones.
Jeff (32:50):
Uh, digital marketer, marketing, tech news, Mashable, love Mashable, um, chief marketing technology. There's a, a he's great. He has, he has cornered the market on marketing technology and knows exactly what's going on with it. ClickZ. That's another one. I love marketing profs. I don't know if you follow that one or not, but they're great. Yeah. So just what I would call thought leaders in the marketing space. It's, it's almost like your muse. It gives you all the kind of latest and greatest that you can dig through and then help out.
Kathleen (33:22):
Nice.
Jeff (33:23):
There's a lot of long form stuff you can read to enewsletters books. Um, I'm heavy right now into, um, a book by Paul Pullman. He was the former, um, CEO of Unilever and it's called Net Positive. So it's very much a, a sustainability, you know, back on our purpose kind of, uh, core. That is a great book I'm reading right now. So as a marketer, you know, you've got to just consume, consume, consume information.
Kathleen (33:53):
Yeah. That's great. Thank you for being so specific in yeah. The things you shared. Um, the other question is this podcast is all about inbound marketing, which I define as anything that naturally attracts the right customer to you, which is similar to the process you talked about in terms of like building advocates and support. Is there a particular company or individual that you think is really setting the bar for what it means to be a great inbound marketer these days?
Jeff (34:17):
You know, there is, um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go into one of my hobbies. So I'm a fly fisherman, love to fly fish. And so of course I, I have lots of marketing, um, coming at me, plus I'm looking for lots of things, you know, products, services in that space. I think one of the best I've seen is Orvis. I mean, Orvis does an amazing job. If you're a beginner fly Fisher and you go beginning, fly fishing, you know, information Orvis is gonna pop up. So their SEO is really great. They've built a lot of sections in their website that are very helpful, informative. They've got blogs, they've got one of the best podcasts out there. Um, for one of their long time Orvis employees who knows fly fishing in and out. So they do a great job job of attracting people. And then I would go then to their more traditional market marketing, they're great with their emails. Their emails are really good, outbound email. I also love their retargeting. They do a really good job retargeting. Um, so Orvis is all the way around is great. And I'm a huge Patagonia fan too. Um, so they do a wonderful job of what I would call almost non-marketing right. Yeah.
Kathleen (35:33):
Don't buy this coat. I love that ad.
Jeff (35:36):
They have, they own the sustainability space when it comes to how they talk about it. And so I, I just can't say anything better about their products or the way they talk about their products or go to market.
Kathleen (35:49):
Well, those are two good ones. Thank you.
Jeff (35:51):
You bet.
Kathleen (35:52):
All right. So we're coming to the end of our time. So if somebody, um, wants to learn more about Saxum and, and, or has questions about the concept of social permitting, or just wants to connect with you online, what are, what are the best ways for them to do that?
Jeff (36:07):
Well, Saxum.com will give you everything that's S A X U M, but if you go to, um, um, saxum.com/social ermitting, uh, we got a landing page there that has our ebook on social permitting and a bunch of other information. So that's one way to get specific about social permitting. Best way to reach me is to maybe DM me on Twitter. I'm at RLYanch, um, grew up on a farm. So I've kind of always stuck with that weird handle.
Kathleen (36:40):
Love that. All right. I will put all those links in the show notes, which are available at kathleen-booth.com and head there if you wanna learn more about Jeff or Saxum or social permitting, head to apple podcasts, if you enjoy this episode and you wanna leave it a review and head to Twitter and tweet me at Kathleenlbooth, if you want to recommend somebody who should be my next guest, that's it for this week. Thanks so much. This was a lot of fun.
Jeff (37:06):
Well, thank you, Kathleen. This was great. Great conversation.
Kathleen (37:09):
Thanks Jeff.
