Harry Morton | Lower Street Media
With so many new podcasts popping up, how can you create a business podcast that truly stands out from the crowd while also driving revenue?
Lower Street Media founder Harry Morton set out to solve for exactly this challenge and on this week’s episode, is sharing his lessons learned.
TL;DR - he says it’s not enough to simply do an interview-style show. To get results, you need to lead with narrative.
What does that mean, and how can you use podcasting to drive results for your account-based marketing (ABM) strategy?
Check out the full episode to get the details.
Resources from this episode:
Connect with Harry on LinkedIn
Follow Harry on Twitter
Visit the Lower Street website
Harry and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:00):
Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen Booth. And this week, my guest is Harry Morton, who is the CEO and founder of Lower Street Media. Welcome to the podcast, Harry.
Harry (00:38):
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Kathleen (00:40):
Yeah. I'm excited to chat with you about one of my favorite topics, which is podcasting. I've been doing this forever. I feel like it's been, this is my second podcast, but I had others that even since I started this one, so I've probably had three or four different podcasts, some personal some for work. And we're gonna talk about a specific topic relating to podcasts, which I am actually person very passionate about just using your podcast in more of kind of an ABM or account based marketing context. Before we jump into that though, let's take a minute. And if you would please tell my listeners a little bit about yourself and what's your story and what's Lower Street Media.
Harry (01:21):
Absolutely. Yeah. So Lower Street, it started about five five and a half years ago now. Really off the back. So my background is in audio and post-production but also in some sales and marketing roles as well, but I, I came with that audio background. I really was sort of very excited by this wave of podcasting that we saw in the kind of mid teens and obviously throughout the pandemic, it's just absolutely. Yeah, it was keen to kind of help brands to tell stories. I come from the sort of brand background and from the audio background, I wanted to combine that and help brands not be boring in audio basically. And I think there's a lot of opportunity for, for brands to be boring and also a lot of opportunity and a lot of desire from listeners for brands not to be boring.
Harry (02:03):
So have been really sort of working on storytelling and audio for some time now. But it was sort of through listening to a lot of business podcasts and producing our own and, and the ones for our clients. And I saw a lot of people around us using podcasts really effectively as a means of business development. And I wasn't quite sure how it was working, because for example, if you look at just monetizing content, the average CPM rates, so cost a thousand downloads is $25 as an average across the industry that makes it really hard to, to make a living as a podcaster. So I was trying to sort of really understand, okay, what's, what's in this for people, how is this, how is this worthwhile? And, but I was seeing, as I say, small companies doing this and, and clearly getting really great results.
Harry (02:45):
And so I kind of made it my mission. I sort of obsessed over it for a while of like, how can we use podcasting really effective to drive effectively, to draw drive ROI, to make this actually generate revenue. And I, after sort of thousands of episodes and you know, yeah, doing this a lot to launching 50 plus shows, we feel like we've kind of arrived at a, a bit of a, a bit of a, a sweet spot with that. And it really is, as you say, this ABM approach. And so if we can use podcasting as a platform to, to not only build an audience, but also to connect our, of our best fit prospects then there's just, there's a lot of kinda power in that.
Kathleen (03:26):
Yeah. I I, I totally believe in this. I mean, funny enough, part of why I originally started this podcast was five years ago, I owned an agency and I was thinking, I, this would be a great way for me to not on only reach the audience. I was hoping to reach, but to form relationships within the industry. I mean, I, I don't have the agency I haven't for years, but it's been a great way to keep learning. But since then, one of the other podcasts I started was at a company called clean.io where I was about a year ago. And we were trying to sell into the advertising operations space. It's very niche and specifically the person who leads the ad ops team, and that is a person for whom, like, it's not a very big category, so it's not like trying to reach e-commerce leaders right there. Aren't a ton of publications out there for this person.
Kathleen (04:15):
You really had to be laser targeted. And so we started a podcast where we would profile ad operations team leaders about their career. And it was very niche, but it took off like wildfire because it was like nobody had ever shown the spotlight on this, this audience before. And, and nobody ever really talked about the career. Cuz there, there isn't a degree for it. You can't go to college for it. So it was all about like, how do you get into this and how do you hire for it and what are your challenges? So it proved to be a phenomenal relationship builder with our target audience. And it also proved to be selfishly for me, incredible audience research because I'm basically asking absolutely my target audience about their career and their daily challenges. So I am totally bought in on what you're talking about, but I love this combination of like using podcasts for ABM and also making it not boring.
Kathleen (05:06):
Cuz there are so many podcasts out there today. I was just talking about this with somebody recently and people are saying it's a very saturated space now. I still really believe in podcasting as a strategy. I, I don't believe in doing podcasting if you're just gonna sound like everybody else or create another podcast, that's like one in a long line of similar ones. So I think let's just start there because I wanna get your perspective on if somebody's thinking about podcasting, like what is sort of the process they should go through to figure out whether it's worth creating it in the first place. Cause I do feel like there are some spaces where it's very saturated and how do you, like if you are in a saturated space, how do you craft a podcast that's going to stand out?
Harry (05:55):
Absolutely. I it's so such an important question. So I think the first thing to say is that it definitely feels, you know, the kind of cliche that's gone around the pandemic is everybody and their mothers started a podcast in the last two years. And, and definitely we have seen a huge spike in people starting podcasts. We've also seen a huge part spike in people listening to podcasts. And what I would say is if you compare for example, the number of podcasts that exists to the number of YouTube channels that exists I don't think anyone's saying that YouTube is oversaturated and it pales in comparison in podcasting. So I actually think there is an enormous amount of opportunity still in podcasting.
Kathleen (06:31):
I love that way of thinking about it, by the way, that's such a great analogy and I'm completely gonna use that the next time somebody's that's that to me because you're totally right. Like YouTube is booming and there are so many different channels. Now there's a ton of channels that nobody watches. So that goes to the part, two of the question, which is there's there's space, there's room there's opportunity, but how do you, how do you become one of those creators that actually attracts an audience?
Harry (06:55):
Exactly. And so that's the next step because in the same way that there's not too many YouTube stars that are filming their show on their iPhone there's not too many podcasters that are just rocking up and kind of doing a really basic production of their show and seeing huge, huge results. So I think that as with any kind of constant production, I think there's certain amount of kind of commitment to the, to the genre, I guess, to commitment to the medium is really important. And doing it properly because I think that, you know, you're right, that almost any, certainly in, in our lines of work like marketing and, and business, you know, almost all niches, there is some kind of show that, that, that caters to that audience. So what we have to think about is what does the audience need that they're not already getting?
Harry (07:39):
And I think that so often the pitfall that we see brands making and individuals making agencies, consultants when they launch podcasts, is that they think firstly about what they're wanting to achieve and the kind of content they think is relevant to their audience, rather than thinking really carefully about the, the, the audience they're seeking to serve. So our focus, the thing that we always recommend is laser laser focus on who are the people we are looking to serve. And the question I always ask, it's really boring. Cause I say it all the time is if you could have just a hundred people listen to your show in the entire world, who's who would those 100 people be? Cuz if we can really clearly articulate who we're trying to reach, we can understand firstly, we can build up a a picture of what they're already listening to.
Harry (08:20):
What are the podcasts that they already consume and, and why? And by the way, they might not all be niche specifics. Some of them might just be Joe Rogan, cuz they like listening to Joe Rogan or this American life cuz they like listening to that show as well. If we can build up a really robust idea of the, the shows that our podcast is gonna be sitting within and effectively competing with, then we can do a couple of things. First. We can steal some ideas from some of the best performing shows, like what, what is common among these really great performing shows and, and what do I need to integrate into my format, but also what's missing here and what can we deliver that nobody else can. So from a content perspective, it's just so important to think really clear about who we're trying to serve and make the show that they want.
Harry (09:01):
But then the thing that comes after that is that probably a bunch of the shows that are out there are straightforward interview shows and now don't get me wrong. I love interview podcasts here. We are talking one right now. They're amazing. As things get more saturated, it gets harder to stand out. One of the ways that we can stand out is by sort of elevating the production values of the show by trying to make something that is more story based and narrative led. And so really again, thinking about, you know, of the shows that my listener, listen, my target listener consumes already. They might listen to this American life or jargon, whatever, you know, what are those formats that, that we think really suit and cater to our audience. And now the answer might be a daily news podcast or it might be, I don't know, a quiz show or something like some kind of comedy thing that's really kind of left field, but it's providing something that's truly unique and needed. And, and that's how we're seeing kind of show stand out. I guess what we then have to do is, is bring that background to this ABM idea and make sure that those two strategies are coherent, right. We wanna make sure that we can achieve those ABM goals that we've got but also make this sort of format of podcast that that's gonna help it stand out above the sort of the, the sea of noise.
Kathleen (10:11):
So you talked about a story or narrative led podcast. Can you just explain a little bit more about what you mean by that versus is it versus an interview style podcast or is there a way to have an interview style podcast that is story or narrative format?
Harry (10:25):
Yeah, I I'm so glad you said that. Cause basically that's what we are about in the shows. Many of the shows that we produce is this sort of this combination of, so when I say narrative led, I mean, things like this American life, those reported kind of shows very much documentary style. But a lot of the content we're producing with brands is, is based around an interview. And so you have this sort of halfway point of the narrated interview as I call it and really great examples of this by the way, would be without fail from Gimlet media or how I built this with Guy Raz is another really great example where the shows are all based around a one-on-one interview. It's still just a main character that's being interviewed by the host of the show. But what they do is they intersperse that interview with story, with narrative to guide the listener through that experience and really kind of tell the story in a, a more compelling way than just Q&A.
Harry (11:20):
It, we find that the engagement levels are much higher at that point because you're able to, to control what the listeners kind of how the, the story is developing in front of them. You're also able to show a lot more kind of authority and thought leadership because you are effectively putting all of that forward as your own idea and your own pay. And so that's sort of the status changes in some degree. But also they were able to in a very basic, basic way, save, we're asking an interview guest, you know, tell us about your background and how you got to where you are today. And they go off for 20 minutes talking about, you know, where they went to college or something. That's, that's great, but it doesn't always make the most compelling listen. And we can say that in 20 seconds of intro script, we can say, Hey, you know, Harry went to this university and he studied here and he went to do this thing.
Harry (12:08):
And then that's how, what led him to here until this one, one day, this thing happened and then we drop back into the interview. So those sort of little touches can take, for example, you know, an hour's worth of recorded material down to a half hour episode, cause we're able to be much more ruthless in our editing, which makes a more concise and compact kind of version of the show. But then by narrat that and guiding the listener through the interview, we're also then increasing engagement, increasing the authority, the we're perceived by the listener and just overall elevating the production values, which just really helps it as I say, stand out from the sea of, of noise that's out there.
Kathleen (12:41):
So just to clarify, you're talking about basically taking the raw material and if I understand correctly adding narration in between snippets of the recorded interview to more more manually guide the story, if you will, is that, is
Harry (13:01):
That right? Exactly right. That's that's exactly right. And that also goes ties into the planning ahead of that interview too, because you are already thinking in mind what the story is. You want to tell. So rather again, rather than just being a question, answer, question, answer, you're able to much more clearly kind of tailor the questions you want to ask to, to kind of tell that story that you're looking to tell in, in the narration afterwards. So planning is definitely a big part of it too.
Kathleen (13:25):
Got it. All right. So in, we've talked about format and what works well let's talk a little bit about this concept of using pod cast for account based marketing. So I think my whole audience understands what ABM is. You know, it's about like being laser focused on, on certain accounts that you're looking to land and creating marketing that that goes after them in a very targeted way. So can you talk a little bit about to you? What does that mean with podcasting?
Harry (13:55):
Well, with podcasting it's, it's just a really wonderful platform to offer someone that you want to do business with. So, you know, if, instead of emailing someone and saying, Hey, can I send you my pitch deck or, you know, Hey, we've got this wonderful, you know, however, personalized your email is it's still an email and you are asking for something from your prospect. I, if instead you're reaching out and you're saying, I would love to chat to you in for my audience because my audience really values your opinion. And they're an audience that's relevant to you for all these reasons. That's a much more compelling ask and it's a wonderful way to spend an hour on a call with someone that you've never done business with before. And you have no other reason to be in touch with in a very non salesy way.
Harry (14:37):
It's a wonderful way to start a genuine and authentic relationship that then can lead to, to real kind of business values. So so yes, it's an egos stroke. It's a platform that you're offering them. It's a, and it's an excuse to spend quality time with somebody. And at the end of it, you then have this wonderful product that's by the way, developing an audience for you on the side as well. So it's almost like it's almost like the traditional use of the podcast of trying to grow an audience than creating content is like the icing on the cake for this. Because, and the re again, the reason that we wanted to really crack this is that it, that when you create a podcast, you're creating content, you're trying to develop an audience. The, the delay from producing the show to receiving the value can be really long, right?
Harry (15:20):
It can take six months to a year to grow an audience. And it, that can be a long time before someone picks up the phone to say, I've been listening to your show, you know, for, for 12 months, or now finally, I'm ready to do business with you. Whereas if we can, if we can interview our, you know, if the guests of the show before the show's even gone live, we've already received the value. And that we've started a relationship with someone that's that's of, of value to us, then that closes that return on investment loop so much faster.
Kathleen (15:47):
So do you have any examples of brands that either you've worked with to do this, sorry, that you think are doing it well?
Harry (15:54):
Yeah, absolutely. We, I mean, one example that Springs to mind, we work with the founder of rankings.io. They're an SEO agency specializing in the legal space. So again, super niche, kinda like what you were talking about. And he's been running the show for for hundreds of episodes now. But you know, after working with us on this for, I think it was around a three month mark. He'd had a bunch of calls that had led to business that paid for us for two years running, which obviously made me question my pricing, but anyway, that's a whole other bit wait, what's,
Kathleen (16:29):
What's the name of his show? And like, what's the format I'm curious.
Harry (16:32):
So his, his podcast is called PIM for short P I M M it's the personal injury marketing mastermind. So it is ultra niche, right? It, it appeals to marketers of personal injury law firms in north America. It's, it's, they're very clear on who they're trying to serve. And I think that is one of the keys as, as you kind of established upfront, right? Like if you can create this echo chamber of just this tiny world, oh, at last, this podcast exists for us. Yeah. You know, it's really powerful.
Kathleen (16:59):
I, that whole niche thing is it's interesting, cuz in some ways I feel like it's counterintuitive for marketers. Like marketers are always after like, Ooh, what's the big audience I can get. And I, I am so on the same page with you about this, cuz I've always said like, look, if only 10 people listen, but they're the right 10 people, that's a home run, you know? Cause absolutely that's the thing with big audiences is it's very hard to target with them and you're gonna have a lot of people who are never gonna be your customer or never, you know, gonna be somebody you wanna partner with. But if you're very, very niche, you wind up probably getting a very, very hyper relevant audience. So
Harry (17:35):
Absolutely this is, this is the pushback I get almost more than any other is, but we don't wanna rule out X and Y listener the, the, the response I always have to that is that we can, we can go broad. But then if you're, if you're trying to reach a really broad audience, you're actually not for anyone in particular, which is a much harder thing to market than something that is super specific. The irony is the more specific you go, actually the broader the appeal is because you have a point of view. You have like a an angle, a slant that is worth engaging with, that's not just a generic sort of viewpoint. And so for example, this rank that I've talked about, you know, they have a very specific kind of target get listener, but then as a result, they've up getting Seth go and VA and, and all kinds of big name guests that actually have a really broad appeal onto the show. Again, because they had such a clear mission. And so actually their audience has expanded beyond that very niche audience. So I think, yeah, it is counterintuitive. You feel like you need to be broad and applicable to as many people as possible, but actually the, the braver you can be in ruling out, people in theory actually tends to draw more in.
Kathleen (18:41):
I love that. That's awesome. All right. So I obviously believe in this, I've done it. I'm a huge fan of it, but there are certain of it that I think are a little tricky and I'd love to get your perspective on this. One of them is, you know, you do the podcast, right? And it, it is a great way to get a foot in the door to build a relationship to build Goodwill, to build trust. And then I find, at least when I've done it, then the next question for everybody on the team is like, okay, so how are we gonna sell to them? And when I was at my last company, I was like, you're not right away. Right? Like you're not, what is not going to happen is I'm gonna do an interview with this person. And then the sales team's gonna call them that is not gonna happen. So I'd love to hear kind of what you've seen and you think works well as far as turning those relationships into business, because that is a very delicate process.
Harry (19:38):
It is, it is really delicate and you want it to be, you dunno, want it to be icky in any way. It needs to be really clean because the whole point of this cuz it's the, you are creating an authentic relationship with this prospect. So you've gotta be very careful. I think, think basically the way that we've seen it be most successful is trying to organically weave in reasons to talk about the thing that you do. So for example again, this SEO agency, they're gonna weave in questions to the interview, which by the way, might not make it onto the episode. Doesn't matter. It's just part of the conversation. So tell us about your PPC strike, ask you or tell us about, you know, what you're doing with with SEO right now, just to, just to have a reason to get back in touch afterwards.
Harry (20:20):
So it's just a way to, you're not being salesy in that conversation. You're not saying, so tell us what you're doing. Oh. And by the way, and then jumping down their throat to sell something to them. Although I will say that many, many times after the record button stopped the question, it comes from the, the person that you've interviewed. So also tell me about what you do and then you just organically have a reason to, to tell them I mean, at least 50% of the time that happens, at least in our experience, but not you've asked question which that in always time or in a couple of days time, you can reach back and say, Hey, just by the way you mentioned that thing, this great article, I'd like to send you about that. Cuz I was doing some thinking about this and this was, is a great resource that might be helpful to you or whatever, just sewing that seed and that reason to, to kind of reach back out.
Harry (21:01):
So whatever that looks like for you, I mean, it is very much a case by case basis. But so, so important to have a really clear and robust plan for what the follow up sequence is going to look like. You don't want it to be gross and hyper salesy, but if it's not there, the whole thing is not gonna kind of it's gonna fall apart before it's begun. So so yeah, definitely having some sort of sequence that you go through is, is very key. Another thing I should say, sorry is gifting. What works really well as an, as a next step. Thanks so much for being on the podcast. Here's a gift and again, it's just another give it's another give and there's another reason for them to, to reach back out and say, oh yeah. So tell me about what you do and all that sort of stuff.
Kathleen (21:38):
Yeah. I did exactly that with adults, all stars, which was the podcast I talked about earlier, I had, as after somebody came on, I would send them a box with a bunch of swag and the main swag item was a t-shirt that just had the podcast name on it, actually not the company name, but then I would throw in some other like smaller swag items that had, that were company swag along with a thank you note. And then I, I have kind of learned through my time doing this, that you, you need a way to keep the conversation going, right. And so yep. Couple things that I've seen work. Well, one is like if you're doing any kind of events or virtual events, like we, this was in the middle of the pandemic. So we were doing virtual wine tastings with a bunch of prospects and I would invite some of the podcast guests to come to those.
Kathleen (22:22):
And if they're nice, cuz they're, they're not hard pitch events, like you get a bottle of wine in the mail, you come on, you, you know, you now know somebody else on the call cuz you've spoken to them for the podcast. And there's a little bit about the company, but it's mostly about tasting wine, which everybody loves that worked well. Co-Creating content. And so I would get to know my podcast guests and I'd, I'd find out something they were passionate about and I would invite them to write a blog for her website. Like one woman in her interview talked about being a woman in the ops industry. And I was like right about that for me, I'd love to publish that and you know, she had never been published anywhere else. And so, and then the last is if you have a community, I think that's an obvious use case is invite podcasts, guests into your community. So there's a lot of like follow-ons there, but at some point, you know, like I guess the question is, are you waiting for them to reach out to you to initiate the sales process? Or is there a point that ever comes when the sales team should reach out?
Harry (23:20):
Yeah. again, I think it is so case by case because it depends upon your typical sales cycle, you know, who your target or, you know, if you're selling to enterprise it's, so you're selling to, you know, startups, for example. So I don't think there's necessarily one answer that's right for everybody. But I do think that ultimately, you know, if we are gonna treat this as a, as a sales channel sales has to enter the, the picture somehow. I mean, one thing that you did mention that I think I'm sure you were doing and is really important as well is, is social. So you've got those natural built in touch points again, cuz when the episode goes live, you're gonna share it on across all the channels and kind of engage in that way. So and people definitely pay attention to stories that mention them.
Harry (24:00):
So they're gonna look. So, so that's another really good one. I do think that ultimately, you know, whether it's something that you wanna follow up with in a couple of days or a couple of weeks or a couple of months, you know, whatever that looks like for you having a very clear, like, okay, cool. Really. I'm so glad that you're in my network. I'm so glad to know you, but here's the thing that we're working on right now. I'd love to have a chat if that's, you know, relevant to you right now. I, I do think that it's important to, to sort of instigate that in some respect.
Kathleen (24:27):
Great. And any pitfalls that you think brands should know about if they're thinking about pursuing this kind of a strategy and like how do you measure the success of it?
Harry (24:36):
Yeah. Well, I mean, if we, if we're gonna treat it as ABM, it's it's, I mean it's leads, right? Like that it's as simple as that. And I think that's the way to think about it though. Like, you know, this is any like any kind of cold, cold sales strategy. I think judging it immediate, you know, in very short term in terms of like sales, it's not necessarily the, the way to think about it. It's more are we getting quality leads a as a result of this because as we know, it might not close this quarter. It might close in three quarters time or whatever. So for us, we, we like to measure it around the number of new leads generated. And,
Kathleen (25:13):
And how are you defining lead cuz that's an important distinction,
Harry (25:17):
You know,
Kathleen (25:18):
Is it like anybody you talked to for the podcast or is it somebody who's expressed an interest after that?
Harry (25:24):
I would define it as someone that's expressed an interest, but again, it so like honestly we have clients that just, they don't care. They're just, they're having 52 episodes a year, go out, they're having 52 high quality conversations. They're not, they just consider it like a brand play. They're not even necessarily measuring it, whereas others are much more kind of meticulous in the way that they kind of measure and, and manage that. And frankly, that's just not our, our world. We are, we are the content experts and the kind of forecasting pros. So we, we kind of leave that work to them. But but yeah, so, and the other thing to of course measure is, is the audience itself like is the podcast producing value in its own, right? You know, this content exists for a reason and beyond just the ABM thing. And so, you know, we are sort of definitely take a lot of focus on how do we grow that audience and kind of nurture them over time.
Kathleen (26:08):
So how can you gimme some examples of what sort of impact this strategy has had on some of the companies you've worked with in terms of like revenue or business growth or any, anything along those lines?
Harry (26:19):
Absolutely. So, I mean, we had a client that was really focused on C CIOs, so chief information officers within large organizations and within a couple of episodes had had managed to get on the phone with the X CIO of Facebook. So just like a, a really, really high value prospect. And I think that's one of the ways that the, these sort of shows can be measured as well, is, is the caliber of people that you can get in front of that you otherwise wouldn't again, because we're offering them a really specific, valuable platform, not just an email saying, Hey, can I, can we chat? So I think that's one of the, one of the things. And again, we might not necessarily be able to measure that in revenue this year or next year, but just the having that person in your network is, is of incredible value.
Harry (27:05):
And at the other end, we've got clients that have you know, closed two years worth of production fees in business in a very short period of time. Other other shows that have reached hundreds of thousands of downloads in one industry awards, which is obviously another great kind of way to to, to derive value from the content and really AB yourself within the industry and, and all that sort of stuff. So there's, you know, success looks so different to so many different organizations. It just depends what we're trying to optimize for, I guess.
Kathleen (27:31):
Yeah. I, I don't think that it, that you can underemphasize enough the value in in the relationships. And this is something that, that I think brands have struggle with because it's not an easy thing to measure, but you sort of said it like somebody gets the CIO of Microsoft on you know, for me, when I had the ops podcast, I was getting meetings with so many of our like perfect target customers that our sales team wasn't getting to meet with and building relationships with them. And it got to the point where I could walk into an industry conference and everybody would be so excited to see me, right. Cause because they knew me through the podcast and then you're getting introductions to other people and you become that, you know, loved brand. Like they always say to be the number one brand in your space, you have to be the most known, liked, and trusted and podcasting helps with all three of those things. So I, I just so strongly believe in this approach. I guess my last question before we segue into some of the closing portions of this is really just kind of advice having done this several times. What are some things that you think folks on the brand side should be thinking about if they're, if they're considering going down this path?
Harry (28:54):
Yeah. So I think, excuse me, the thing that's so important is being ultra clear on goals. What are we trying to achieve? How are we measuring success? And, and when we look back on this in six months time, how do we sure, Hey, this is, this was a really, really great thing and really valuable. So that's, that's a question that I, I think is super important, cuz it will impact not only the strategy, but also just like what the podcast being like, what is, how loads are all these kinds are informed by what we're trying to achieve. The other thing that we that's informing them again is the audience and who we're trying to, to reach. So those are the two main things that we just absolutely wanna understand incredibly clearly going in because it impacts all of the things. Then I would say the other thing is, are you committed to the, to the medium?
Harry (29:41):
Now that sounds like a very sort of grand, you know, self important thing to say you know, are you committed to podcasting? Cuz if you're not, you know, it's not, you're not, it's not, you're not ready for it, but actually it's a lot of work podcasting. It's something that you have to do. You know, I said before weekly episodes, 52 episodes a year, that's a lot of a commitment in terms of producing content. And so being really, really clear on, you know, is this something that we have time for? You know, cuz time is the ultimate thing that we come up against as an organization dealing with other founders, marketers, all this sort of stuff. Time is, is so much the issue. So one of the things that I would have people really consider is, is the season. So a lot of people assume the podcast has to go out every week.
Harry (30:24):
That's just what podcasts are. And certainly that's like the best case, especially when we're teaching it as ABM, cuz 52 connections a year is better than 12. But but your issue for you if turning up every week to record an episode is something that you feel like you're not necessarily ready to take on then saying cool. We, we think we could do 12 episodes this year. And so then condensing that into a season weekly episodes. You can focus on making it much, much higher quality and much higher value and really giving yourself a window to measure that return. If we do 12 episodes, that's a full quarter of weekly episodes. We can then look back on that and understand, and has this worked or not? Do we wanna invest in it for but, but what the worst case scenario is, is either saying we haven't got time.
Harry (31:11):
So we are just gonna release an episode every month. And that's just very, very, very hard to grow any sort of momentum or following it's just too infrequent or they say we're gonna go every week. And then you realize two months into it. You can't keep up, you're too busy and then you start dropping episodes or dropping the whole thing altogether. And then it's just very, you know that's, that's a, a real shame and you just kind of wasted a lot of the content that you've made there. So I think that's, those are the things I would think about really clearly, what are we trying to achieve? Who are our listeners and what can we feasibly commit to producing over the next 12 months? And, and be really clear about that upfront.
Kathleen (31:45):
Yeah, I think consistency is so, so, so important and it is the biggest mistake. I agree that I see so many podcasters make where they get busy and they, they don't treat it right as something that's super important and they skip weeks and, and with any media, really the goal is to build a habit with your audience. You wanna be part of their routine and podcasting, especially, you know, this is why you see some of the best podcasters. They always publish on the same day at the same time every week and they don't skip. Right. Cuz people notice when you, when you skip things, if you are part of their routine. And so one of the things I've learned over time is to front load a lot. And to like, for example, don't launch until I have eight episodes already done and ready to go.
Kathleen (32:29):
So that like, if I have to go on vacation, I'm not panicking cuz I missed a week and like to try to get ahead and always have a bunch of them in the can as they say. So that you take that pressure off yourself. If you do get busy, cuz it does happen to all of us, right? Like we're gonna have weeks where we're busy, so you have to plan for that. But where I I've seen exactly what you have, which is you can take a podcast, that's got a great traction and then all of a sudden it gets more spur. The routine gets broken and it, everything just sort of falls apart. It, it happens so fast. It's, it's amazing how quickly that can occur.
Harry (33:07):
Yeah. And, and look, we also have to be real about the fact that podcasting is a nice to have. It's like it's not, your business is not going to live or die based on whether you have a podcast or not. Right. So it's important to keep this put context, you know, we both know having done lots of it, that there is an awful lot of value to it. But also you have to make real decisions around, do I, you know, focus on this or something else. And so that's why being realistic about that upfront is super important because otherwise you could waste thousands of dollars of loads of time and then only ever put out six episodes sporadically and to be a huge, huge waste. So I think it's just very important to be clear up front, you know, about everything.
Kathleen (33:45):
Well, and to your point, actually what I would add, cuz this speaks to my, the first time I podcasted, I had this experience, I sort of jumped in and I didn't really put a lot of strategy into it. And I think we did 20 something episodes and I, to the point where I was like this podcast, isn't gonna go anywhere. Like it wasn't specific enough, it wasn't gonna develop a following for that reason. Like there were just a lot of structural problems with it and I think you have to also be very critical and look at what you've created. And if you don't think it's going to, to achieve your objectives, you have to be willing to pull out and just say, you know what? That was a great experiment, but we're stopping it and moving on. So, Yep. Alright, well I wanna shift gears cuz I do always ask two questions from my guests at the end of the podcast and I wanna make sure I get your take on this first being that marketing changes so quickly and a lot of the marketers, I talk to say that one of their biggest challenges is just the struggle to keep up and stay educated and stay on top of all these things that are happening in the world of digital marketing. And so how do you personally do that?
Harry (34:47):
Well look, I'd be crazy if I wasn't here telling you that podcasts is one of my main ways of staying relevant. That's definitely what I listen to, to, to stay up to date. I'm not a reader so much. I, I listen to everything, certain podcast. Oh good question. I should have I should have thought of that in advance before I answered that. Shouldn't I what, what do I like to listen to I'll come back to podcast recommendations in a second. The other thing I was gonna say is just that social media is just huge for me, I'm a big Twitter addict. And so that's where I, you know, the, the, the most relevant and up to date stuff is being shared there all the time. It's terms of podcasting that I listen. I mean, I listen to in a huge amount of podcast about podcasting. So pod news is one of them and pod is another, which are incredible resources for the podcasting industry. So I definitely recommend any market that's interested in podcasting, go check those shows out. They're really great resources to understand more about the medium.
Kathleen (35:40):
Oh great. Those are two good recommendations. And I will link to those in the show notes as I usually do. So if you're interested in learning more about those head to Kathleen El booth.com and that's where you can or sorry, kathleen-booth.com. Ah, my Twitter handle is Kathleen all booth, too many variations, kathleen-booth.com. That's where you'll get the links. Second question. This podcast is all about inbound marketing, which I define very loosely as anything that naturally attracts the right audience to you. So with that definition in mind, is there a particular company or individual that you think is really knocking out of the park these days in terms of their inbound marketing?
Harry (36:19):
Yeah. Look, I just think brands that truly embrace media and being really positioning themselves as media brands, I think are doing some really exciting things. So WIA, for example, have been doing this for a long time profit, well, which is a, a kind of more of a niche company. They just do such an incredible job with content, not just podcasting, but video as well. Actually weirdly I think both of those brands and, and lots of others that are doing a great job are all out of Bo Boston, Massachusetts. So who knows, maybe there's just something in the water there in Boston, but there's a lot of really interesting brands doing, doing really interesting things with media. So there's a couple examples that come to mind.
Kathleen (36:53):
Yeah. I, I do love both of those and I, I always cite profit. Well, as an example of you, you don't have to be a huge company with a huge budget. They just happen to have a founder, Patrick Campbell. Who's really passionate about creating content in a variety of formats. And he does believe in thinking like a media company and he's actually written about that. And they're scrappy, they just made it happen. Right. And it's really paid off for them. So I totally examples. Alright, well, we're coming to the end of our time. So if somebody wants to learn more about what you've talked about or connect with you and ask a question or learn more about lower street, what is the best way for them to do that?
Harry (37:32):
Well, if you wanna know about podcasting or marketing then as I say, I hang out on Twitter a lot. So I'm at @podcastHarry on Twitter. If you're interested specifically in podcasting and, and what we do, that's over at lowerstreet.co.
Kathleen (37:45):
Great. All right. Well, as I said, I will put those in the show notes, which are at kathleen-booth.com. So head there for all of those links. And if you know somebody else that is doing amazing inbound marketing work, tweet me at my other handle, which is @Kathleenlbooth at Twitter. And I would love to make them my next guest. So that is it for this week. Thanks so much for joining me, Harry. This was a lot of fun.
Harry (38:08):
Me too. Thanks.
