Dave Gerhardt | Founder Brand
What’s one of the most overlooked, yet high impact, marketing strategies?
Dave Gerhardt says it’s building the brand of the company’s founder.
It’s the strategy he used to help Drift become one of the fastest growing SaaS companies of all time, and what he later used to help Privy scale and get acquired.
Now, Dave has consolidated everything he learned through those experiences into a new book, Founder Brand.
In this episode, Dave outlines the three levels of building a founder brand, including:
Become a storyteller
Become a publisher and get on social media
Become a master of the feedback loop
Check out the full episode to hear what Dave had to say.
Resources from this episode:
Visit Dave’s website
Get your copy of Founder Brand
Dave and Kathleen recording this episode
Kathleen (00:00):
Welcome back to the inbound success podcast. I'm your host Kathleen. And this week I am very excited to welcome back to the podcast the one and only Dave Gerhart. Welcome Dave.
Dave (00:31):
Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. When did we talk? Probably like three or four years ago.
Kathleen (00:38):
It was like four years ago because you were one of my, like I would say, first handful of guests and the podcast is five years old now. I'm coming on episode 250.
Dave (00:49):
How often do you do it?
Kathleen (00:50):
Once a week.
Dave (00:51):
Wow. Had you been doing it once a week for five years?
Kathleen (00:53):
Yeah.
Dave (00:54):
It's amazing.
Kathleen (00:56):
I know I'm sort of at the point where I don't think I could quit, even if I wanted to. Cuz I feel like I have to keep the streak alive.
Dave (01:01):
That's awesome. I'm the worst at keeping things going and that's awesome. Why, why do you, why do you do it every week? Still?
Kathleen (01:09):
Honestly. And I've said this since day one. I would probably keep doing it even if nobody listened, because it's a great excuse for me to continue to learn and to talk to people like you, who, especially in the world of COVID like we don't get to see each other at in person events. And so-
Dave (01:24):
It's so cool to hear you say that. I actually, I talked to somebody this morning and I wish, I, I don't know if I articulate this in the, in the book, but I was thinking about this personally. Like I don't think I'm a great marketing leader. I think I've just been lucky to be in marketing and I've happened to do podcasting at the same time. And so like, I've learned like by osmosis you have hundreds of conversations and you're like, holy cow, I'm soaking all this in learning. And I, I, it's cool to hear like a bunch of people now say that and you included like the podcast is secretly like this like learning hack where you're just, you have to show up every week for an hour and you're gonna talk to somebody and you're gonna learn new tools, new ideas. I, I totally get it for the same reason. I felt that a hundred percent on my end.
Kathleen (02:03):
Yeah. I you know, I've interviewed a lot of people and, and very often I pick who I interview selfishly, cuz it solves a challenge I'm currently facing and I'll never forget it was Val Geisler. I interviewed her and, and at one point during the interview she was like, is this just thinly disguised free consulting? And of course she's awesome. And she said it in the nicest, funniest way possible. And I was like 100% yes. That's exactly what it is.
Dave (02:27):
Yeah. I mean you, but you could say that. Yeah, you could. I love Val. You could say that about anything. Yeah, that's true.
Kathleen (02:32):
So, so actually, and it's funny because I mean, I would have you on anytime cuz you always bring tons of value, but we're actually talking about this at a really interesting time because I just started at a new company and I'm working for an amazing founder and I've already had this conversation with him around like, look, we need to, we need to get you more active. You know, in, in terms of content creation in terms of sharing, you know, how you think about things and we're just in that like soup of figuring out how to do it. And so this, you have a new book out that is super well timed. We're gonna dig into that, but I, I think probably most people listening here and know who you are, but just for those who don't, could you take a minute and maybe just recap your background and, and also just what you're doing now.
Dave (03:17):
Sure. so my name is Dave Gerhart and I live in Burlington, Vermont right now. I spent the last decade or so working at B2B SaaS companies, just not on purpose, it just happened that way. I, I started after college. I worked in PR and I, I got, got into a SaaS company called Constant Contact and I was just like a product marketing manager are there. And then I wanted to get in, in the startup world. And so I went to a company called Privy. They didn't even have a marketing role for me. I just wanted to get into startups after learning what I learned at Constant Contact. I was doing PR for like a startup function of, of their business. And so I took a account management like customer success job at this company called Privy at the time.
Dave (03:59):
And they ended up like, the company ran outta money. There's a second part of the story later, they ran outta money. Maybe because I was the account manager that the company, the company failed. And, and so I, and after Privy kind of went out business, I went to work at HubSpot. I worked at HubSpot for a little bit, and then I got connected with David Cancel and Elias Torres from Drift. And I was the first marketing hire at Drift. And I grew the I ended up kind of growing into a marketing leadership role over there. Grew the team from zero to 30 people. The company was about 300 people when I left to go be CMO at Privy the company that failed before because they ended up having this amazing comeback story and they built an amazing, like 10 million business in the Shopify app store ecosystem.
Dave (04:46):
So I was CMO there and then recently I, I now I run my own consulting and content business. And so I work with a bunch of B2B startups one on one, one from a consulting standpoint, but I've also grown this community and content business that I call DGMG, which is where I share content and, and help people learn B2B marketing. And yeah, now I'm, I guess I'm, I'm that I'm a solopreneur is what they call it, but I'm really just talking about marketing and, and, and hopefully helping people get better at marketing and spending a lot of time with my kids.
Kathleen (05:21):
That's awesome. I love that you managed to carve out something that is just uniquely yours from all these experiences. And I think one of the reasons I always enjoy talking to you other than, you know, you, you have such interesting insights on marketing is that I, I was an entrepreneur at one point I owned an agency and since then, I've been like, I don't know if it's, if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but I'm like, like a fly to the light. I keep coming back to startups. There's something about that early stage that where you're building. And it's like, when you're leading marketing at a startup, it's like you're building a business within a business and your business is the marketing. There's something so appealing about it, but what I think is really cool about your journey and what I am fascinated by it, and, and love learning from you about is like, how do you go from being that startup marketing leader to, to like making that transition into a big company. And so, so much of, of that is one of the reasons I've followed you. But to today, we're gonna talk about Founder Brand. You have a new book out, literally hot off the presses. Tell me a little bit about it.
Dave (06:25):
I want to talk about startup marketing careers with you.
Kathleen (06:27):
We could talk about both.
Dave (06:32):
Wanna talk about that just for a minute, cause I think it's a good topic? I don't care.
Kathleen (06:36):
I mean, I love it. It's like, you know, it's like a love, hate thing. I love every time I go in and I'm like, this is awesome. And then I'm like, here I am again.
Dave (06:43):
Well, I think it's hard because it's really hard because like it's easy, like, and I put out a ton of content and you know, I think it's so hard because like I'll put out very like definitive takes on things and cuz that's what works well on social media. But like there's so much new months inside of a startup, you know, from, from budget to talent, to team, to what you can do, who you can work with. Like, and I just so much of that is impossible. So, but what I've realized, what is fun though, is just kind of like the portfolio approach. Like I, what I've found that I, that I enjoy is like give the ingredient. And it's like the, the ingredients that I had at Drift were different than the ingredients that I had at Privy. Drift had raised a ton of money and they were doing this one path and they had really well known founders and Privy is a whole different opportunity.
Dave (07:29):
And I, I think that's the fun part. I think that that's what, like, I think separates the average startup marketing leaders from the, from the really good ones is like, it, it can all be applied. And so you gotta think of like, what, what do you have in this scenario? What ingredients do you have? And so like one of the connections to the book Founder Brand actually is like this came because the, the main ingredient that I had early on and I, I got lucky. I didn't, I didn't have the wisdom that have now in the early days, but I, I, this is all like, you know, retroactive. The main ingredient that we had at Drift before the company was really well known was the founder was well known, which was David Cancel. And so we were like months off from actually launching the product when I joined, but we built a pretty strong audience because David was well known through the HubSpot world and he had sold a couple companies before.
Dave (08:15):
And so it was kind of like when looking at all the ingredients to begin to build a end and build awareness for this company, the channel that we placed to bet on was, was his social fallings. I like that, like figuring out, oh, this, this company is entirely different. That's gonna be a totally different playbook. And I also like the balance of like, you know, towards the end of my time at Drift, I was just doing so much managing and not actually marketing. And so, I like to still do the, do the marketing in some places too, which you don't always get as you go to a bigger company.
Kathleen (08:46):
Yeah. Amen. And that's, that's part of why I think I like it is I feel like to keep my proverbial saw sharp. I need to have my, you know, you need to be into it up to my elbows a little bit. But also it is a challenge. Like it's a fun challenge and I always call it like punching above your weight class. Like, the best startup marketers, they just know how to like, take whatever, whatever is there and figure out how to make something that is greater than the sum of its parts. And it's fun. It's hard. It's a lot of work and it's always that, like, you're always in that time period where you're like, I have amazing ideas and I know what I wanna do, and we're gonna make it happen, but we don't yet quite have the resources to do it the way we might, if it was gonna be done perfectly. But you know what, like get scrappy, take risks.
Dave (09:34):
Just, and every day, every day is like a sprint. Every day feels like a sprint.
Kathleen (09:39):
Yeah. You gotta have a bias for action. So I, I someday I'm, you know, I'm going to, I'm working on a little project right now by the time this actually gets published, it'll probably be out, which is I'm teaming up with Todd Clouser from Refine Labs and we're making a, we're remaking, the Bud Light Real Men of Genius commercial, and it's Real Marketers of Genius. And we've written, I wrote a script that is basically a love letter to startup marketers. And so that, that video should be done soon.
Dave (10:13):
That's amazing. Wait, and, and are you just doing this? That's amazing.
Kathleen (10:18):
Oh, I, I wrote it. I, well, it's on LinkedIn. It's already on my LinkedIn. I wrote it. I actually shared the script. And so many people were like, oh my God, we need to actually make this. And Todd talked to me and was like, I can make it happen.
Dave (10:30):
That's amazing.
Kathleen (10:31):
Yeah. Should be fun. And then maybe it'll be a series and we can do like real, real ABM marketers and product marketers who knows, but we'll see.
Dave (10:40):
That's awesome.
Kathleen (10:41):
Anyway, so the thing about the thing about your story with David Cancel that at least is interesting to me right now is I feel like I'm in kind of a similar situation where I'm coming into a very early stage company. Now we already have a product. Different, a little different than when you first started at Drift, but I'm working for a founder that has an amazing track record and a following. And, and not because he's like done anything to, to particularly nurture it, but like he's a successful person who's exited a really large company in the past. His name is Paul Palmieri. He was the founder of Millennial Media.
Kathleen (11:17):
It's sold to AOL, very big success story in the ad tech space. And, and I've sat down with him and said, look, I think we have an opportunity to move forward and, and really leverage what you've the kernel of what you have and turn it into something bigger that could work for Tradeswell. Seems like that's the opportunity you were presented with at Drift. What I liked about the book is that you've broken it down and really made this actionable, which I think is, is often hard to do when you're talking about things like personal branding. So maybe we could go into it. You, you, in the book, you have like three different levels that you've broken things down to. And I feel like if I'm remembering correctly, cuz I just read it pretty recently. It starts with really your story.
Dave (12:04):
Yeah.
Kathleen (12:05):
Can you talk a little bit about that?
Dave (12:06):
Yeah. I'll give you the formula. So yeah. So, so level one is become a storyteller. Level two is become a publisher and get on social media and level three is become a master of the feedback loop. And we, we went with levels because I think that you could actually, the dream is to be able to do each one of these things in a course. But like if all you take is become a, if you just become a better storyteller, other than like that, that's, that's fantastic. And so I think what, you know, in a, in a scenario like this, like with, with Paul, for example, like totally agree with that hypothesis that you have something and people like to buy off of trust and credibility, right. And so you're basically trading on it. It's not so much about like build a, the following of that person that that's gonna happen.
Dave (12:56):
But for me, like at Drift and I think in this scenario, what I, if it was me, what I would be doing is like, why is this person who's already had a huge success in this space spending time? He clearly, and this is maybe true or not, but clearly doesn't need to, he's already made a bunch of money. Why, why would he go back and build another company in this space? And there's, there's probably some story there, like you're kind of starting to smile because there's probably, there's a reason you took this job, right. There's probably some compelling vision. And so I think that like, what's so cool about the founder piece of this is like, they're the ones with that genuinely unique and interesting story. Very, very rarely is like the, oh yeah, Paul started this company cuz he wants to get rich again.
Kathleen (13:35):
No, Paul actually got rich, is a VC and, and invests and chose this company out of all the companies he's invested in to be, to step in and be day to day. So yes, you've hit the nail.
Dave (13:46):
So like with, with the founder, there's all, there's usually some story to like that or it's like, you know like I think in the book I have an, I have an example from from Hint Water, which is like Cara, their founder, like couldn't find a, you know, and these, these e-commerce stories like take 'em with a grain of salt, but like couldn't find a healthy drink for her kids. So she made this, this, this flavored water that, that has no, no sugar. There's always something like that. Even Zoom, Eric Yuan the founder of of Zoom, right, he, his and I actually don't even know if Zoom used this to their, to their benefit or not. But like, this is just an example to, to tell the story. He was a, a former like VP of engineering at WebEx before Zoom. So should they be like in the early days of the company, they're trading on the authority and credibility and trust of that person, and there's so much noise out there. There's more noise and competition than ever, and like, yes, you, you might have built the best product in the world, but I haven't even gotten a chance to even tell you about it because you don't know me.
Dave (14:44):
You don't like me, you don't trust me. And so I think leading with the founder can give you an advantage and just like inherently the founder has, you know, a true, a truly unique reason for starting the business that makes for a great hook. So I think that's the center of it. But I also think that the founder has to be able to, like, this is not an, the book is not about like, Hey, you know, Paul's just gonna post a bunch of memes on social media. And like, you know, you have to be able to define your story and like identify a villain, identify some change. Show people what you know, where you're taking them. And so like in the Drift example, it wasn't just that David Cancel was this entrepreneur who built companies in the sales and marketing space.
Dave (15:26):
It was because he built companies in the sales and marketing space for last decade, he realized that the industry was broken, ripe for disruption. And the way that the old way, you know, we, we use that as an ingredient in the story to show people. And that's why we're building Drift, which is gonna do X, Y, and Z, and show you this new world. And so I think like before and before, the book even gets into like being on social media and starting a podcast and doing those things, storytelling is the most important ingredient that you have as a startup. And I, I totally I think you would agree with this, kind of, cuz I've seen some of this stuff you've written, but like I totally agree with the idea that your story is your strategy and that's, that's like the ingredient number one. And because we had that clear story at Drift of thing was broken, we're gonna change. Here's how. Here's a new playbook that basically gave us a talk track for everything that we did with marketing. It gave us a roadmap for the product and, and it really aligned everything that we did as a business.
Kathleen (16:21):
Well, and what I have always thought was so brilliant about what you did is, you know, you came into a market and you point this out in the book, where if you were to add it up, there could have been like 10,000 potential perceived competitors. You know, like you could have come in and just been like, well, we're building a chatbot, you know, like everybody, our website chat and everyone would've like, oh, you are too great. You know, but yep.
Dave (16:46):
Well, and, and it was like, that's the angle? Like this is the, this is the fun, this is the marketing that I, this is the marketing that I love, which is like, what's the, what, it's the angle? What's the, what's the hook? And it like sounds so corny to say like, what's the hook, you know, in a, in a, in a discussion about marketing. But I think, you know, that's where just not a lot of people are spending that time. And we just like, like to jump right into the tactics when it's like, the tactics will, will only be better if you have a better story. And so you know, are to not just the fact that the founder is well known, but how can that be used to an advantage in the story that you're trying to tell about, about your business? And so we used the proof and credibility of, of David and used that as a hook to get people interested in this new world that we were promising them. And then all of our marketing became about teaching people how to do that new way. And like David, as the CEO became the, the mouthpiece of that, I played a role in that from a marketing perspective, but through his social media and through his podcast, now all those things are kind of reinforcing each other and you build a brand beyond just like the, the logo on your, on your website.
Kathleen (17:50):
Now you talked about this a little bit, just a few minutes ago, but I wanna zero in on it cause I think it's really important. Why does it have to be the founder?
Dave (18:01):
Same reason that like when you go to local restaurant and, and, and you, and you meet the owner and like, you know, or the owner is the, the head chef or you, you know, you, you call up your doctor's office and like the nurse is telling you one thing on the phone, but you don't really believe you, you really wanna sit down and have that one on one with the doctor. I think we, we wanna work with people and we wanna work with experts. And typically the founder has some expert piece in this market. And I think, especially in the context that you and I often talk, which is B2B, I think expertise is the most important thing. And so you're selling to HR or you're selling to finance or you're selling to legal or ops or sales or marketing. There's usually, you're usually selling them some type of change and they're not gonna trust that from some random them person off the street. They need to believe that this is someone who understands their pain, understands their world, understands their problem. And so I think we live in a world where we, we wanna, we wanna buy from people, people wanna buy from people. And I think now that everything is digital and you can create real, like, you know, one-on-one connections with businesses. It, it it's the, the same is true from the store down the street to the, a B2B company. Like how much of a role has like Dharmesh played in the evolution of HubSpot, for example? Right.
Kathleen (19:16):
Yeah. He's amazing. I think the biggest, the biggest pushback, I feel like most marketers encounter is, is not necessarily like, Hey, is this a good strategy? It's okay. I run into a roadblock when I go to my founder and explain, this is what I wanna do, because you know, they're saying things like I don't have the time or should it really be me? What have you found to be effective in, in convincing founders to participate?
Dave (19:45):
Okay. Well, step number one for me is like, and I don't want this to be a cop out answer, but it, it always works better when the founder is on board and believes in marketing. And so like for me, in the case of Drift and Privy, I, I had two CEOs who got, who, who wanted to do this. And so I never had to like pitch anybody on the value of it. They, they wanted to do that. I think if you have to make the case, there's a, there kind of like a group of CEOs who you can make the case, but they just don't ever believe it. And you can present to them all day. And it's, it's, there's no spreadsheet in the world that you're gonna be able to show them. But I think if the, if the common of, if the, if the number one roadblock is, is time I think you gotta make the case of like, look, this is arguably the most important company and brand building channel that we have we're missing out by not by not doing this.
Dave (20:38):
And so here's two or three other companies in our space and here's how they've done it. And here's the advantage that it's give them. And then look at, look at the organic and brand advantages has given them, like you have to paint, paint the, try to really show the business case. This is not about like posting on social. This is not about posting on social media, but how can you relate this back to the business? And so for me, it's like relating this back to the credibility authority and trust of the brand. And look, I was actually just writing something on this earlier, cause I wanna try to, but like, if you're in B2B, there are however many hundreds of millions of users on LinkedIn and all those people are on LinkedIn every day because they're secret, we're all secretly, always looking for another job or, or a promotion or a partnership with someone.
Dave (21:23):
Or you're trying to see where your friend is at. You're on LinkedIn all the time. You can reach those people with interesting content. Like there's a, there's a pool of people there. Your, your dream customers are already swimming over there instead of trying to let fight so hard to get them to come over to you, right? If you can insert yourself in the conversation on, on LinkedIn, for example, through interesting and relevant content, you can build a following on LinkedIn. And a lot of people say, well, followers is a vanity map, okay? But the bigger following you have, the more people you're gonna be able to send to your stuff. And so who's gonna get more people to sign up for a webinar, a, a company page that has a thousand followers and posts about their webinar or a company page that has a hundred thousand followers and posts about their webinar.
Dave (22:03):
So ultimately like you have to connect this back to our customers are on, on link to our buyer are spending time on LinkedIn or whatever the social channel is. We need to be there. We need to be there with with relevant conversation. And so what it relevant conversation is not ads is not promotion. It's like industry chatter. It's like, if you're a golfer and you're on golf, Twitter, how do you insert yourself in that conversation? If you're in if you're in marketing, what's marketing Twitter talking about how can you insert yourself in the conversation? So as a brand, we need to reverse engineer our way into that conversation. The best way to do that is to lead with the founder because you're the expert. You have the credibility we need to be there. If you, if we can be there, here's what we're gonna get. We're gonna grow our social following. If we grow a social following, we're probably gonna be able to grow our website, traffic, do all these other things. And it goes beyond sales. It's about attracting the best candidates. You'll get more inbound on opportunities for partnerships, co-marketing everything across the board. So it's gotta be rooted in like a business, a business story.
Kathleen (23:02):
Yeah, I totally agree. And you know, you talked about it being all about conversation and like, you can't really have a conversation with a brand. You have conversations with people. So that's, that's the way I've always looked at it. And, and it's interesting, you know, certainly on LinkedIn, it's true. And I know we're selling we're B2B, but we're selling into e-commerce and like, they're definitely on LinkedIn, but they're also really heavy on Twitter. And there's a lot of conversations happening there between like DTC founders. And if you can be a part of those conversations, that's how you start to build relationships.
Dave (23:32):
Like we just, and like, we just relate better to, to people, right? And so like, if you are like if you're, if you're a yoga brand who sells workout beer or you're Kathleen who has a family has, has kids is a busy mom, created this brand to do X, Y, and Z. And you sell athletic wear. The natural connection is gonna be drawn towards you and hearing from you and not that logo, but like, I feel like, like you have the opportunity to get people to, to get it. So they feel like they know you. And in B2B like, you could almost argue that's even more important because it's, there's much more at stake that it it's a much higher. You're spending much more money. There's 18 to 20 people involved in the decision making process. It takes three months, six months, nine months to actually buy something. Why would you not want to increase the, the, the reputation that you have going into B2B conversation?
Kathleen (24:26):
Yeah. Amen. And it's so funny cuz in the book you use the example of Sarah Blakely and I totally follow her religiously and I am 100% her demographic. So the point was really well made. So it starts with being able to tell your story and I, and I want people listening to know the thing I liked about the book is that you get very action. So like at the end of the section, I'm telling your story, you're literally like, okay, it's your turn now answer like these. I don't remember how many it was. Let's call it five questions and that's the building blocks of your story. So
Dave (24:57):
That's because I'm not, that's because I'm not that great of a writer. So I'm like, I'm just gonna have to give people actionable, like make this a fill in the blank thing because I'm, this is not a novel.
Kathleen (25:07):
No, it's great. And honestly that is actually the premise on which I founded this podcast. People always ask me like, why'd you start it? And I started it cuz I used to back in the day when I owned my agency, I would go to conferences like inbound and and places like that. And I would go to these sessions by people who were supposedly crushing it with their marketing and I'd sit there for an hour and I leave the room and be like, great. I just spent an hour with them telling me why I should do X, Y, and Z, but not actually how to do it. And so I don't feel like I'm leaving anymore empowered to get better results with my own marketing. And so I wanted this podcast to be like, yes, we can talk about the Y we can talk about the strategy stuff, but I wanna actually make it so that someone can finish listening and like leave and do some things right away that can get them better results. So,
Dave (25:52):
I mean, it's like the same, it's the same, it's the same strategy that I try to give people in the book. Like what, what you just laid out is what could be the, the, the bones of like a successful B2B marketing strategy. Like just reverse engineer that, what is that for your industry? Like, like your focus on marketing obviously, but like what if this is for sales or finance or HR, like it's the same template we wanna buy from. We wanna learn and work with work from people about the things that they're actually doing, especially in the B2B context.
Kathleen (26:21):
Yeah, for sure. So, okay. Storytelling is the start. We've kind of covered like how, what the bones of that look like. And then you go into level two, which is starting to engage on social.
Dave (26:34):
Yes.
Kathleen (26:35):
How, for a founder who might not be like previously very active on social, how do you get started on that? How do you coach them on the best way to put together an approach to their own social?
Dave (26:50):
Well, the, so the advice that I recommended in the book, like, I, I don't talk about YouTube. I don't talk about Instagram. I don't talk about TikTok, even though those are all great channels and you can build an audience there. Right. I specifically only talk about Twitter and LinkedIn, because those are both, you can have a, a ton of success with just text communication or like you've had a lot of success on LinkedIn. You just literally type into your phone. And, and so like, I hate the excuse that I don't have enough time or whatever, because like, come on you, you have time like in between your next meeting, instead of firing off five emails and, you know, archiving all the spam, you're getting like open up the notes app on your phone and start to just make observations about what's happening in your world and your industry.
Dave (27:37):
And so I, I pick that because I think like it's more about like switching your brain on to think about which kind that might be interesting for people because your, your founder, Paul's probably having these thoughts all day. He's in investor meetings, advisory meetings, partner meetings, customer meetings, roadmap meetings, marketing meetings. There's gotta be some thoughts that he's having in his head about, about this industry. And so some founders will be like, great. And they can take that prompt. And you're like, Hey, want you to next time you have these observations. I want you to, for the next week, I want you to try to write twice a day in the notes app on your phone. I want you to write two observations about what's happening. Okay. That could be a start starter, Google doc. Some people don't even wanna do that, or they can't do that.
Dave (28:20):
And so I, I, I think the best recipe is like with, with a nudge and help from a marketing marketing person. And so the, like the ideal scenario would be like do think, start to think about that, but like, I'm gonna pay Paul, let's grab 30 minutes on your calendar every Friday at nine, let's do 30 minutes. All you gotta do is show up. I'm gonna do the rest. And I'm going to, as the marketing person, I'm gonna interview Paul for 30 minutes and I'm gonna get all, I'm gonna take all that content and I'm gonna start to help him format and write some of these posts together. I don't wanna, I, over time, I don't want to ghost write because I think the huge value is to like actually be there, but I want to give you some prompts of like, what to write about or things to post and things to say you can.
Dave (29:02):
And so I love the approach of like sitting down for 30 minutes, because in a recorded interview, you at so much content, you could even record the video clip and take a expert, some interesting thing he said and clipped that. And it's not even from a podcast episode and that could be LinkedIn content on its own. The other thing is to be very proactive. People like to say, like we don't have, my founder won't gimme any time. Okay. That's okay. If you can't even get 30 minutes with him, he's probably communicating in 15 different ways inside of the company. And so maybe, maybe you work with this amazing CEO and, and, and she writes a, she writes a Sunday night email and about like thoughts and observations about what's happening inside of the company. Could you, could you start to take some of that and edit it, take out the sensitive, important internal stuff, but like these founders, these CEOs are, they're kind of spitting thought leadership all day across the company in internal communications, in Wiki, slack, wherever, like it's more about flipping your brain on to think about, okay, what, which of these things would be, would be would be relevant and interesting to people.
Dave (29:59):
So step one is like, grab some time and, and, and do this like transcribe interview process and, and start to help get some content rolling. But number two is just to turn your brain onto like all the start thinking about all the things that could be shared and could be turned into, you know, unique content to be posted outside of your company.
Kathleen (30:19):
Yeah. I I, I think that's an awesome approach and, you know, it's funny, you mentioned like my LinkedIn and, and I'm like, I just started a year and a half ago and I was like, I'm just gonna see what happens if I post five days a week, you know? And, and in the beginning I was like, how the hell am I gonna come up with stuff to say five days a week? And funny enough, I did use the notes app on my phone, but like, I am definitely not the world's foremost expert in anything at all. And I kind of like had this agreement with myself that that's okay, I'm just gonna post what I'm learning as I'm learning it, or I'm gonna post questions as I have them. And there's gotta be at least somebody else out there. Who's wondering the same thing I am. And it was a total experiment. And it's bizarre, like how it has snowed bald and I'm not doing it for any reason, honestly. Like I don't have a course. I'm not, you know, I'm not selling consulting. I was just like, I just wanna see it's my experiment. And I came to this conclusion that actually, like, there are just so few people that regularly do post and share anything that if you're one of them, like it's gonna work, you're gonna start to have conversations and community.
Dave (31:26):
And that that's, but that's all rooted in the fact that like, you, you might not have been posting on LinkedIn, but you knew what was happening there. And you were aware to, like, you saw other people's accounts and you knew what kind of stuff is working. And so like maybe step and I have this in the book, but like maybe the, the ultimate step one is like, if you wanna start posting first, you have to have a first, you have to be able to identify like what what's good, what looks good or what things are interesting. And so like, I would first identify like, as a founder who are, who's one or two other founders in the space that like, do a good job of this, and could you kind of mimic what they're doing, but flavor it towards, towards your industry, right? Could you, what Dharmesh is doing at HubSpot, but you sell to finance and could you kind of start to mimic, like the stuff that he's doing. And so, you know, you, you obviously came in and you had a sense of like, what, what might work. But yeah. Also, like it's not about the followers in the early days, it's, it's a, it's about finding your own voice and like figuring out how to communicate on this, on this channel because could have a really witty thought and post it, and it's not interesting to anybody. And then you post like a silly, ridiculous meme and that meme goes viral on your life.
Kathleen (32:34):
It's so true. It's never the things that I think are gonna inspire the most discussion that are the things that do that. It's bizarre.
Dave (32:41):
And, and, and you don't, you don't know that unless you're, you're showing up and, and, and posting something. And I also think it's, I think people don't see that they're like all, you know, post every day on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter to me. It's, it's a, it's a fun experiment for myself because it forces me to like work on my communication style and, and, and try to, it's not about like gaming the way to write on LinkedIn. For me, it's not about that. It's about like, what I like is about taking a, a thought and trying to like, communicate it in the simplest clearest way possible. And I also think that's a skill that founders all could be working on. And so, like, you, you get better at that. And I actually, I actually helped the founder last year and he was like, I don't want you to ghost write.
Dave (33:26):
For me, cuz I need, I need you to teach me how to do it. And so I would literally, we would do a 30 minute Zoom call and he would pull up LinkedIn and I'd be like, tell me what's going on. And he'd be like, I had a really good meeting today. And I'm like, why and why? Well, because this happened and this happened. I'm like, okay, well, how could we, okay, tell this story, could you take this part out? And then he's typing. And so I think like you can sit alongside this person and try to coach them to create interesting content. But it, it's very hard to do that unless that founder can first articulate, like, know what what's good, but ultimately I wouldn't even think about the followers and results in the, in the first six months or a year.
Dave (34:06):
I think it's about you finding your voice. And so do you, as the founder wanna become a clearer articulator of your, of, of thoughts about this industry. I think, you know, that, that, there's, there's huge upside to that. And so that's, that's what you're gonna go on and that's a journey you're gonna go on. There's gonna be all these other benefits that come with it. But the goal is like for the first year to basically just shut up post consistently, hone in on your voice and see what happens. And as you know, after three months, six months, there's so many unmeasurable benefits that like I've seen founders all the time shift their thinking from like, I, I just talk, I did a interview with Peter Mahoney this morning. He's a CEO of a company called Plannuh. And he was like talking about why he does their podcast.
Dave (34:47):
And he said, it's been an unbelievable source of new customers and insight and knowledge. And he's a super analytical, analytical, former CMO. I would've figured he was the type of guy to be like, I'm not doing a podcast in, unless I know that is gonna contribute to million in qualified pipeline this year. But after 65 episodes of doing the podcast, he just feels it. And he knows that it's a no-brainer channel that they need to keep doing. And I think like so much of that with social media and podcasting, you have to just do it consistently to feel the benefits. And you're gonna feel a customer told us I got connected to Kathleen and she invited me on her podcast. This investor reached out for the first time. I'm starting to get more comments on my stuff. It's not this perfect, like ROI number that you're, that you should be expecting at the end of X months.
Kathleen (35:31):
Yeah. And your attribution model might not be able to track it ever. How important is it once a founder starts? I have my, I have an opinion on this, but I wanna hear yours. Once a founder starts posting, like in terms of expectation setting, how important is it that they then also be prepared to put time into engaging with like the comments they get and engaging in the subsequent conversation that happens when they post.
Dave (35:55):
It's a, it's a, it's a requirement. They, I think they're not, they're not separate. They're not separate things.
Kathleen (36:01):
Yeah.
Dave (36:01):
And you know, I think like obviously you can't sit around all day. Like here, I, I even struggle with this on my own content now, cuz like I'm not gonna, it's not, it's not good for anybody's mental health to sit around all day and, and respond to LinkedIn comments. And so what I do is I, when I go to LinkedIn, I write something new and I take five minutes to go through stuff and see where I haven't commented and responded. And I, I, I try to, like, I re I respond with some just like emojis or saying, Hey, just to let people know that like I I'm, I'm I'm there, but then, and as, and as a real person, but then I try to, if there's like a really interesting or funny or thoughtful comment, I try to pick out one or two and like actually try to write something thoughtful back.
Dave (36:50):
I think that's super important. Because it's like that, that that's the, the social media part is like, it's a, it's a conversation channel. Over time, things can become very toxic and you know, you can't be spending all, don't be spending all your time, like arguing people in the comments. That's not what this is about. But I think it's important. And also some of the best insight for future conversations comes from the comments. And like, I, I could comment on somebody else's post and that comment kind of blows up and I'm like, huh, there's, that's an interesting topic. I should take that and then write my own posts about it. And so like, things like that happen. But you also see like what type of stuff. So I, I posted like this picture of some sushi that was wrapped in garbage the other day.
Dave (37:36):
And it was like, it was a, it was a amazing copy and design for this like for this sushi company about like, you know, what goes in the ocean goes in you, and it's a just talking about you know, you could be eating garbage basically. And, and it, and it, and it, it, it blew up the post had like a, a million and a half likes. It was insane. And, you know, to be able now, to now say like, okay, so what, and so my, so what is, I gotta find some people, people, whoever follows me, like happens to like copywriting and like kind of catchy creative design. And so let's go find more things like that. And so that's one example that like, you just have to be there looking. And I think it, it's a really, to your point about hosting a podcast and being, and, and getting knowledge. I think you can also keep your finger on the pulse of what's happening in your industry by, by being able to do that without having to leave your office, or, you know, all you're doing is looking at your phone and you're getting a, a sense of like what, you know, what challenges and frustrations and ideas people have in your industry. What, why, why do you, why do you think it's a requirement?
Kathleen (38:39):
Oh, well, because I just, I, I personally, we started out talking about its conversation and conversations have to be two way, right? Like there's nothing worse than somebody posts something and you take the time to comment. And especially if it's a thoughtful comment, and then it's like the, a tree that fell in the forest. Like if nobody ever responds, it feels sort of obnoxious. Like they, they thought it was worth their time to post, but it's not then worth their time to acknowledge that you responded. So there's, I think it all there are, and there are a lot of people that do that by the way that don't ever respond. And I just know that I'm personally much more attracted to building a relationship with somebody who is engaging with me online. Especially if there's somebody who I would not necessarily have access to in my daily life or in who is like, let's say above my perceived level within the industry, if it's somebody that I aspire to have a relationship with, if they choose to engage with me and respond, there is something just that, that I feel so appreciative that they've found it worth their time to engage with me, that it makes me that much more excited about what they're working on.
Dave (39:46):
Yeah. And like, you can, you can deliver that experience. You can deliver that to people that you might want to sell something to one day, which is a, a powerful thing from a business standpoint. Right.
Kathleen (39:54):
Right. There's a reciprocity element is huge. So, so in terms of channels do you usually recommend to founders that they kind of pick one and hone in on it and really devote their time to that? Or are there ever times when you're saying like, no, you should be on two or three?
Dave (40:13):
I think it's, I think you can use Twitter. I recommend like Twitter and LinkedIn together because you can basically use the signals from one to, to inform like, usually, usually what works on one will work on the other. And those are both text based. I think where I think where founders go wrong is when the marketing team or whoever is like, we got a couple videos on YouTube. We kind of do this podcast. We got a LinkedIn page, we got a medium blog, we got a newsletter, we got a LinkedIn account, we got a Twitter account and we're just kind of taking like one average message and just like spreading it across all those things where like I think you'd be much smarter to just to really focus in. And I think it's, especially if you're in B2B LinkedIn probably will provide the most value for you in, in, in doing that. But I've also found that like what, what you use to build your, your authority or whatever on LinkedIn can work pretty close to just as well on Twitter.
Kathleen (41:17):
That makes sense. And I love that you focused in, on kind of text based platforms because it is true. Like if I went to my CEO and I was like, we need to start making TikTok videos, or I wanna put you on video to do X, Y, or Z. Like, it would become so much more complicated, unnecessary than it needs to be.
Dave (41:34):
But, but also what I like is like, it leaves the door open to do, to do that later, because like now you might not want to, or like, I might not, I haven't done anything on TikTok and I might not want to, but I feel like because of what I've posted on, on Twitter and LinkedIn, I feel like I could, you know, have a good sense of what might work well, and I got three or four hits that I might pull out to create. And so I think it gives you the quickest ability to like, get the feed, the feedback loop going simply through, through text. So I think starting there, or like, look at you mentioned Refine Labs before. Like, I don't think Chris Walker has done anything on Twitter until recently, and he's kind of just focused on LinkedIn, I think. And, and that's a, that's an exact strategy that you can basically use if you're in, in, in B2B. And the reach on LinkedIn is still, is still pretty, pretty good.
Kathleen (42:29):
Yeah. Yeah. And he's experimenting with TikTok, which will be interesting to see what happens there.
Dave (42:34):
Yeah. I I've seen, I've seen some like very, very average account TikTok accounts, like just gain a ton of followers focusing on, on marketing with like very, very average content. So yeah.
Kathleen (42:46):
There you go. We can all be average and win on TikTok. I love it.
Dave (42:50):
Well, no, but like, but kind of, it's kind of the same logic that you said before. Right. Which is like, most people just don't do it. Yeah.
Kathleen (42:55):
Yeah. And don't do it consistently.
Dave (42:56):
So like it like to, to, and that's the other thing for founders is like, you don't have to be posting, like you don't have to be creating like once in a lifetime level thoughts to be successful cuz like most 99% of the other founders and people in your industry just probably aren't even gonna go do it and share it. Most of the people, well, no, not on this podcast, but you know, majority of people that take that listen to this advice, art won't actually won't actually do it. And that's not some like rah post, it's just, it's true because like, we're, we're all fearful of like what's gonna happen or what if nobody, you know, responds or what if I get troll in the comments, those are all very natural natural things. I've just like, just like you I've done it long enough now to know that the pros outweigh the cons and like I've seen a ton of value from it. And so you just kind of power through that part and do it.
Kathleen (43:45):
Yeah. All right. We are gonna run outta time and I have one more question I wanna ask you before we have to wrap up.
Dave (43:50):
So, oh my God, how is it one? How is it 1:48?
Kathleen (43:52):
I know time flies when you're having fun. So I, I always like to kind of put myself in the head to the extent possible of my listener and try to think about like, what's the question they're gonna have about all this. And I imagine that one question people are asking themselves as they absorb all this is okay, all this is great. I get my founder to do this. They develop a following. People start listening to them. They hear the story. How does that, how you as a marketer eventually turn that into leads, pipeline et cetera. Like where does the rubber meet the road and how do you shift into more of a sales conversation?
Dave (44:29):
Well, I mean, you're not, you're not never going to promote your, your company and your business. And so I, I think of it as eventually the benefit to me is that a organically, more people begin to hear your name, know what you stand for and show up on your website. And I, and I've seen that happen like six months after we launched the e-commerce marketing school podcast at Privy with Ben organic traffic was up 30%. That's not a, there's no direct funnel there, but it's because we were putting more content out in the market. People like it, people started to share the podcast, tell 'em about it. Hey, the CEO of this, the founder of this coming called Privy, like people, word of mouth happens. And I think we just don't like to it's not perfectly measurable and it doesn't fit.
Dave (45:15):
Yeah. We can't measure it. So, so if, if you become more interesting and more people start to follow you, like guess what's gonna happen? More people are gonna hear about your name, hear about your business. And you are connected to your business because your profile is gonna say CEO of whatever, founder of whatever. But I think eight outta 10 times, you're not promoting yourself, but two outta 10 times you, you are. And so like in the example of Privy, for example, let's say Ben's posting all this, this helpful stuff on, on, on on LinkedIn. He starts to grow his following. Well, when Privy does have an event, now Ben can actually post the event and tell people that Privy is doing an event. And instead of him posting about an event and having one person sign up from, from LinkedIn now, all of a sudden 64 people signed up, cuz the CEO made a post on LinkedIn.
Dave (46:06):
And that's when you're like, whoa, okay. But the trade off is. And I, and I see this on my own personal stuff. Like whenever I promote myself and my stuff to my engagement goes way down and I get low results. But if I go like 10 posts in a row, just not promoting myself, not promoting stuff, not promoting myself. Then I do like a DGMG promo. It's, it's amazing. The, the like people actually sign up. And so I think ultimately it's the give, give, give, give, ask thing where you're gonna give out a ton of value, put out a ton of content, the world. And then when you need to do things like announce things about your company, you've now created a channel where people are actually listening. And I think the problem is most people go the opposite way, which is they post all company stuff, all company stuff, all company stuff.
Dave (46:48):
And so nobody's actually listening where if you become interesting and post interesting content, now all of a sudden I've been following Paul for, or a bunch and you know what, I might actually go sign up for this webinar. I might actually go listen to this podcast. And so I think it's the, it's the balance of like spending 80% of the time not promoting stuff. And this is very counterintuitive to like what we're used to in the marketing and demand gen world, because it's typically like, oh, you want to drive more results, send more emails. Right. And so the best, the, the best way. And, and I, and I saw this, I saw this entire, like the, the whole reason I even started to get traction on LinkedIn was I used to just kind of only promote Drift stuff. And there was very low engagement over time once I shifted. And I kind of just talked more about marketing in general and then every, you know, sixth or seventh post, I, I promoted something from Drift. The response was way up. And so I think it's like you're putting in the work to prime and build your audience. So when you have asks and have things that you need to promote, you can actually get people to show up.
Kathleen (47:48):
All right. I love it. I think, I think ending on that note is key. As we wrap up, if somebody wants to get the book, learn more connect with you, what are the best ways for them to do those things?
Dave (48:01):
So the book is on Amazon. You can just go to Amazon and type Founder Brand. And then it'll be paperback, which I, I would recommend they have hard cover, but the paperback is perfect. There's a Kindle version. And then I'm actually after this podcast, I'm spending two days next week and I'm recording the audio book. And so it'll be available on Audible soon. They told me no dairy before I record that. So I won't apparently makes for a lot of smacking. And then I'm just my website is Davegerhardt.com.
Kathleen (48:31):
Awesome. All right. Well, I will as always put those links in the show notes. So head to Kathleen-booth.com and you can find all of that there. Thank you so much for joining me, Dave. This was awesome. It was great to see you again after what, four years? A lot has changed in that time.
Dave (48:46):
Yeah. Thanks for, thanks for doing this. It's it's kind that you gave some of your listeners time to listen to us, kind of rant about founder marketing. I hope it was useful for people.
Kathleen (48:56):
Super useful. Thank you. Thanks for joining me.
Dave (48:59):
Yeah. Thanks.
